Killing Whales, Why?

[Michaelangelica]

Why?
Perhaps because they fart!
http://www.abc.net.au/science/news/stories/s933906.htm

(Great article - but great job?? )

This is worth a read too

News in Science - Whale brains are part human - 28/11/2006
Summary: ... Complex social patterns The researches found spindle neurones in the same location in toothed whales with the largest brains, which the researchers say suggests the cells may be related to brain size. ... Spindle cells may be affected by Alzheimer's disease and other debilitating brain disorders such as autism and schizophrenia. ... http://www.abc.net.au/science/news/s...85.htm?ancient - 22k - [ html ] - Cached - 28 Nov 2006

. . .

What do you think of this 'pro-ish' whaling article?

Opinion

Save the whaling

Issue 3 of Cosmos, September 2005
by Jennifer Marohasy

Whaling can be done just as sustainably as other forms of marine harvesting - if we remove our cultural blinkers.

http://www.cosmosmagazine.com/node/648

[Cedars]

Whaling can be done just as sustainably as other forms of marine harvesting - if we remove our cultural blinkers.

After reading the article and the suggestion of maintainable harvests we can look a bit further into this. It actually might be entail greater protection of the whale in the long run. First we would need to agree that the whale resource is the property of at least all coastal countries who have whale populations (or could be expanded to include all coastal countries) To further muck it up we could declare whales the property of each and every nation. So how to divide this world resource up? By country population would seem the most fair method.

Sample population taken from this web page: http://www.mnsu.edu/emuseum/information/population/

China 1.3 billion
India 1.1 billion
US 298 million
UK 60.5 million
Australia 20.2 million

Faroe Islands 47 thousand
Japan 127 million
Finland 5.2 million
Norway 4.6 million
Russia 141.7 million

Looks like China and India would automatically qualify for the most whale take. Brazil would want in on this I am sure so heres their numbers 189 million

Now we have to figure out what is a sustainable harvest.

Minke whales - The present population worldwide is believed to be over a millions animals. Sexual maturity is reached at 7 or 8 years in the northern hemisphere. Breeding peaks in summer months. The gestation period is 10 to 11 months, and calving is thought to occur once every two years on average.

10-15% sound good for a starter? 100,000 - 150,000 animals

Pilot whales - There are likely to be almost a million long-finned pilot whales and at least 200,000 short-finned pilot whales worldwide. Males reach sexual maturity at about 15 to 16 feet (4.6 m) and 12 years of age. Females reach sexual maturity at about 12 feet (3.7 m) and 6 to 7 years of age. Gestation lasts approximately 12 to15 months and calving occurs once every 3 to 5 years.

Wow, they reproduce even slower than the Minke. We have to adjust our take to account for this. 5% for starters?

Humpback whale- It is believed they number about 30,000-40,000 at present, or about 30-35% of the original population. Humpback whales reach sexual maturity at 6-10 years of age or when males reach the length of 35 feet (11.6 m) and females reach 40 feet (12 m). Each female typically bears a calf every 2-3 years and the gestation period is 12 months.

hmmm. I dont feel very comfortable with declaring this population recovered yet. Hunting is possible but very limited. 2%? That would be 700 animals a year. It seems the average for this whales population increase is around 3.2% a year except for around Australia (Rates of increase. East Australia: 1981-96 12.4% (95%CI 10.1-14.4%). West Australia: 1977-91 10.9% (7.9-13.9%)). From this weblink posted earlier http://www.iwcoffice.org/conservation/estimate.htm

A harvest of 2% would really slow the final recovery.

Fin whale - it is thought that present populations are about 40,000 in the northern hemisphere and 15,000-20,000 in the southern hemisphere, a small percentage of the original population levels. Adult males reach sexual maturity at about 6-10 years of age. Gestation is 12 months, and calves are believed to be born at 3-4 year intervals.

I wish there were better numbers on this whale. What is the small percentage of original? I think this one is best left alone until we know more.

There are critically endangered whales still and their numbers are not harvestable yet.
Right whale- Bowhead whale -Blue whale - and others I dont list.

Doing a quick calculation, it works out to be 1 Minke whale per 60,000 persons if taking 100,000 whales and 1 Minke whale per 40,000 persons if taking 150,000 whales. This is based on a world pop of 6 billion. *someone really needs to check my math. Math is a really weak point for me.

Japan would be able to take 2116.6 if the harvest is 100,000 and 3675 if the harvest is 150,000.

Norway is way overharvesting under this formula: 76.6 @ 100,000 and 115 @ 150,000

While technically the Faroe Islands would not qualify under per 100,000 harvest, I think we should let them take one.

Wow! Chinas take on the world Minke whale population would be 21,666.6 @ 100,000 and 32,500 @ 150,000

Now what about the boundries for different countries. If the USA has a harvest allotment of x should there be some kind of restraint in place for Japan? Or australia being soverign and all, how close to Australia can China float their boats? If this is expanded into world resource how could it be implemented fairly? Maybe no whale hunting within 200 miles of any shore? That would protect most (if not all) of the proposed protection areas listed here: http://www.cetaceanhabitat.org/pdf_bin/hoyt.pdf

And for sure the countries who chose to continue not whaling are going to be pressured by those which do to give up some of the whales. I think this should be handled the way our local hunting is. We issue x amount of licenses for taking deer (as an example). Not every hunter bags a deer for sure, but that does not mean other hunters can take more than they are licensed for. Another way to look at is is border states. Wisconsin does not decide to hunt more deer each year based on how many deer are taken in Minnesota.

One part I havent thought out is what to do with excess. Should Japan be allowed to sell whale to another country, say the Faroe Islands? I am not allowed to sell my hunted meat or fish. Its for my consumption only. The other part is should Japan be allowed to hunt for say, Afghanistan or be allowed to purchace their allotment?

Cool info (dismissing all the military past) I came up with while searching for info:

https://www.cia.gov/cia/publications...k/geos/um.html

total - 6,959.41 sq km; emergent land - 22.41 sq km; submerged - 6,937 sq km

[Michaelangelica]

Originally Posted by Cedars

Now we have to figure out what is a sustainable harvest.

Minke whales - The present population worldwide is believed to be over a millions animals. Sexual maturity is reached at 7 or 8 years in the northern hemisphere. Breeding peaks in summer months. The gestation period is 10 to 11 months, and calving is thought to occur once every two years on average.

10-15% sound good for a starter? 100,000 - 150,000 animals

As usual cedars a brilliant (in all senses of the word) post. Reminds me of Shakes pear's Brutus's famous "They are all, all honorable men. . "

There is probably a case to be made for "harvesting" of some Minke Whales.

I think what rankles in Australia is the Japanese killing of wales on "scientific grounds" -which is such balderdash, such a lie.
Whales make their way up the East coast every Spring and every cliff-face has people with binoculars whale-spotting. The radio stations give alerts. Once one had a calf in Sydney harbour. The foreshores were chaotic.

Recently the ABC locked up three academics with all the Japanese research papers on whales for the last 10 years. They emerged from the mountain of paper with 1-2 papers that could be called "science" and needed to kill a whale to do the research.
The Japanese counter that Australians eat kangaroos and emus and baby lambs. This is annoying criticism too, as both the first are in almost pest populations and lambs are grown for food.
The Ability of the kangaroo to control fertility is amazing (she can keep three fertilised foetuses going or "on ice" until the season allows for birth!)

We are also proud of the fact that we have the only National Coat of Arms (Kangaroo on one side of a shield Emu on the other) in the world that can be eaten.

PS
The CIA link was an eye opener.
Can I post it on US Imperialism thread?

If those refuges are not patrolled they will be poached; as we have learnt. Thousands of sharks are killed in Australian waters by Indonesian fishermen -just for their fins for "Shark Fin Soup"
Recentlty the navy chased a boat across the southern ocean to S Africa as they were poaching on the very deep-water fish "Orange Roughy" who have a very long lifespan and only re-produce very late in life.

[Turtle]

I understand the Gray Whales are coming back in the Pacific. People here flock to the shores and go out on boats to whale watch as well. (Oregon/Washington) We have one tribe up on the Strait of Juan de Fuca - the Makah - who have asserted their ancestral rights to hunt the Grays. Here's a link:
http://www.alamut.com/subj/the_other...ahWhaling.html

PS The article has some numbers on the increase of Gray whale population as well.

[Michaelangelica]

Originally Posted by Turtle

- the Makah - who have asserted their ancestral rights to hunt the Grays. Here's a link:
http://www.alamut.com/subj/the_other...ahWhaling.html

The Makah must have balls to hunt whales like that!
I didn't ralise how much money is in whaling

The key to Makah economic prosperity had always been the whale trade, and the Tribal Council began to realize that a return to this trade may just prove to be the economic savior that the tribe had been waiting for. Japanese market prices pegged the value of one gray whale at anywhere from $500,000 to 1 million dollars, and since the Makah were the only Americans with a legal treaty right to hunt gray whales, they would have no competition for these dollars.

Down the south coast whalers used a pod of killer whales to herd the whales into a bay where the Whalers killed them and gave choice bits of meat back to the killer-whales. Amazing story can't find much about it on the web

Exhibitions about the shore based whaling operations from Twofold Bay during the 1800's and early 1900's include a full skeleton of 'Tom' the Killer Whale legendary ORCA. He led a pack of killer whales in the hunt for baleen whales on their Southward migration each year along the Far South coast of NSW.

http://www.totaltravel.com.au/travel...killer-whale-9

http://www.totaltravel.com.au/link.asp?fid=538417
This was interesting

What size can whales grow to?
MINKE WHALE.
(Balaenoptera acutorostrata)
Size: 7-10m
5-10 tonnes

BRYDE'S WHALE.
(Balaenoptera edeni)
Size: 11.5-14.5m
12-20 tonnes


HUMPBACK WHALE.
(Megaptera Novaeangliae)
Size: 11.5-15m
25-30 tonnes

SEI WHALE.
(Balaenoptera borealis)
Size: 12-16m
20-30 tonnes

SPERM WHALE.
(Physeter macrocephalus)
Size: 11-18m
20-50 tonnes

FIN WHALE.
(Balaenoptera physalus)
Size: 18-22m
30-80 tonnes

BLUE WHALE. *
(Balaenoptera musculus)
Size: 21-27m
100-120 tonnes

[Cedars]

Originally Posted by Michaelangelica

I think what rankles in Australia is the Japanese killing of wales on "scientific grounds" -which is such balderdash, such a lie.
Whales make their way up the East coast every Spring and every cliff-face has people with binoculars whale-spotting. The radio stations give alerts. Once one had a calf in Sydney harbour. The foreshores were chaotic.

Recently the ABC locked up three academics with all the Japanese research papers on whales for the last 10 years. They emerged from the mountain of paper with 1-2 papers that could be called "science" and needed to kill a whale to do the research.

You will get no argument from me, regarding the hijacking of the term 'scientific' to cover what is obviously a commercial endeavor. I would have thought more in the acedemic community would have put pressure on any institution that allowed this 'research' and the international community put pressure on Japan to produce publicly the science, to allow some proof that this excuse should be rejected.
Hope that made sense.

Originally Posted by Michaelangelica

The Japanese counter that Australians eat kangaroos and emus and baby lambs. This is annoying criticism too, as both the first are in almost pest populations and lambs are grown for food.
The Ability of the kangaroo to control fertility is amazing (she can keep three fertilised foetuses going or "on ice" until the season allows for birth!)

We are also proud of the fact that we have the only National Coat of Arms (Kangaroo on one side of a shield Emu on the other) in the world that can be eaten.

I hope this was countered with 'we dont eat koalas.' I can produce a recipe for swan from my moms Victory Cookbook, which was sold during WW2. Eating swan was not out of the question at that time, but now its a crime. Times change and for the same reasons we shouldnt hunt whales (population decimation), you wont find recipes like that being traded around any cooking circles I know of.

Originally Posted by Michaelangelica

PS
The CIA link was an eye opener.
Can I post it on US Imperialism thread?

Someone needs to deal with the military aspects of that region.

Originally Posted by Michaelangelica

If those refuges are not patrolled they will be poached; as we have learnt. Thousands of sharks are killed in Australian waters by Indonesian fishermen -just for their fins for "Shark Fin Soup"
Recentlty the navy chased a boat across the southern ocean to S Africa as they were poaching on the very deep-water fish "Orange Roughy" who have a very long lifespan and only re-produce very late in life.

I think thats why its set up as it is, no access except for a few permit weilding scientists/researchers. Makes it easier to spot a poacher via flyover. Thats not to say there isnt poaching going on but it makes it alot easier to swoop in and ticket/impound any boats that are spotted.

Thanks for you compliments on my post! Its always appreciated!

[Michaelangelica]

Originally Posted by Cedars

I hope this was countered with 'we dont eat koalas.'

NO WAY-
They taste like S. . t.

[Cedars]

Originally Posted by Turtle

I understand the Gray Whales are coming back in the Pacific. People here flock to the shores and go out on boats to whale watch as well. (Oregon/Washington) We have one tribe up on the Strait of Juan de Fuca - the Makah - who have asserted their ancestral rights to hunt the Grays.

http://www.acsonline.org/factpack/graywhl.htm

I wish I knew how they determine a whale population has neared its historic levels. Maybe it is due to the Blue, Humpback, Bowhead (and other) whales still struggling to achieve its former numbers. And this brings up the question of whether harvest of the Gray is needed to leave the spot open for these other whales to expand back into their territories in bigger numbers.

While the Makah have not lost their rights to hunt whale, they did agree to no international trading of their harvest, which was notably missing from the description of the obsticles noted in the last part of the article.

I have lost much of my sympathy towards native hunting/fishing rights and that is not due entirely to media coverage, rather it is due to personal experiences with some members of various tribes. While the public face of the tribe will decry members of the tribe who overharvest, my experience indicates it is not 1 out of a 100 members who take the attitude of "killing as many as I can so white people cant have them", that the public tribal face claims. There is also the point that the tribes I speak of are not whaling tribes.

[Michaelangelica]

This is the story of Killer Whales helping humans hunt other whales
Title: Killers in Eden
Author: Danielle Clode
Publisher: Allen & Unwin 2002
In Conversation - 30*November*2006* - Danielle Clode


Today my local bottle shop and post office had petitions to sign against killing whales. These will be presented to the Japanes Embasy. They were running out of farms to sign.

[anglepose]

from what i gather the inuits and iclandics hunt whales as part of a long running tradition precisely the same arguement they have as the uks ban on fox hunting which is the same principle as whale hunting.
so basicly they just hunt for fun becuase they no no better.
to stop this absurd whale hunting they need to be educated into the reasons why we are inflicting a ban instead of just telling them they cant hunt, especially educating the children so future generations dont hunt.