[LaurieAG]

Originally Posted by freeztar

Interesting, I'd never heard of it before. It seems like overkill for a pedal boat, but seems like a great material for making a medium sized "traditional" boat on a budget.

Hi Freeztar,

Actually you can make a workable dinghy in about 24 hours with some chicken wire, sand, cement and a bit of effort. The following site has plans for a ferro 12 footer.

Small Craft Plans - Benford Design Group

BTW 1888 - First photograph of a concrete canoe

Team UAH - ASCE Concrete Canoe Team at the University of Alabama in Huntsville - 1848 Records

[Turtle]

Hey Freezy! Just to start with an unattested quote, "a boat is a hole in water that one throws money into."

That said, you guys may want to look into this guy's success pedaling a boat in an ocean: >> Man returns from round-the-world pedal boat trip after 13 years | the Daily Mail

On the hull design, the 2 primary types are the planing hull and the displacement hull. Of the 2, the displacement hull is more efficient as the boat does not need to climb up to plane.

There is a 3rd design which is little known but very succesful and worth considering, and it's called a SWATH boat. Small Waterplane Area Twin Hull. Here's some starter links: >> SWATH BOAT DESIGN OR SMALL WATERPLANE AREA TWIN HULL DEVELOPMENT AND SOLAR NAVIGATOR WORLD ELECTRIC NAVIGATION CHALLENGE

SWATH Boat Moves

[redshift200]

Hello to all. I am the person building the boat.

I am going to post my preliminary drawing as soon as I can get my scanner to work.

Currently I am planning to build a pvc frame, cover it with chicken wire (for reinforcement), and cover this with plastic fabric. I will put enough flotation foam in the boat to make it float in the event of a hull breach. I will reinforce the pvc with steel cable and connect this to the chicken wire, which I believe will make it virtually impossible for the vessel to break apart. The pvc frame could be broken, but then the wire/cabling would hold the vessel together until it could be repaired.

I have found a material that I want to use for the hull. It is a polyester weave supported waterproof vinyl fabric (18oz) that is used for heavy duty applications like commercial tents. This fabric costs $120 for 10 yards. If anyone knows of a cheaper, more durable material, pls let me know. I am also looking at using some sort of hard plastic to make a skid guard in heavy wear areas of the hull, perhaps something like an frp (suggestions are welcomed here too).

Also I believe that if I put flotational foam on the roof of the cabin, that it will make the boat very capsize resistant. If the boat does turn over, then it would simply float on its side momentarily until the weight of the keel rights the boat. This, I believe, will also provide significant thermal shielding from the sun for the roof of the cabin or keep it warmer in cold weather (but it is more intended for tropical climate).

I am also going to use outrigger/s to stabilze the boat, and the flotation foam on the roof is a secondary anti-capsize measure, just in case the outrigger/s were to be broken off in severe weather. I am thinking about using two outriggers that can be taken off the boat and connected to make a catamaran lifeboat just in case something were to happen to the main vessel. Furthermore, I am hoping that I can use the outriggers to lift the boat further out of the water, giving me enhanced shallow water performance, but the outriggers can be lifted out of the water to make the boat thinner in case I want to navigate a very narrow waterway.

I have pretty much decided to ditch the paddlewheel idea since I have found something that I think will work better. I intend to use a right angle gearbox with double output shaft (1:1 ratio) to turn an axle that will then turn a prop. I do want the prop to be adjustable for beaching and shallow water navigation. However, I do want to switch between pedal power and electric, and I have to figure out what is the best way to do this.

I do intend to carry a generous battery bank on the boat. In fact, I intend to use the batteries as balast. I want to be able to charge the batteries from pedal power, pv cells, and a vertical 'sail turbine' that I intend to build for the roof of the cabin. I am not interested in making a regular sail for the boat because I don't want to have to constantly monitor and adjust sails. I want the operation of the boat to be as idiotproof as possible. I want the boat to have a very low profile for wind and other reasons, so a sail is way taller than what I would want, and the vertical sail turbine will be removable. BTW, I do expect this vessel to be very lightweight. This will make it vulnerable in high winds; thus part of my strategy to make the boat safe in high winds is to give it a low profile and to deploy a sea anchor in very high winds (if this occurs).

The design issues that I have currently are:

-What diameter pvc do I need to support the weight of the boat (at the keel)? Of course this does depend on the weight.

-I need to be able to determine the boats draft.

-How many batteries do I need? I would want to be able to cook (hot plate and toaster oven), distill h20, run climate control (space heater in cooler weather, fan in warm weather), make ice with a portable ice maker, run low voltage lighting at night (I want to use Christmas lights), run exterior headlamps when necessary (and perhaps a strobe to be visible to other vessels), run a computer (desktop) occasionally, run a portable mp3 player over computer (amplified) speakers, and have enough reserve to power the electric engine for 3 days (50 miles per day) or as much as possible (if 150 miles is too much to ask for). I was considering 8-10 batteries (deep cycle if I can afford them). And, what capacity inverter will I need for all this?

-What horsepower electric engine do I need? I was considering 8hp or so.

-Can I configure the electrical system so that the motor that runs the prop can also generate electricity when it is being turned by pedal power, rather than when the batteries are powering the engine?

-What is the best way to protect the electrical system from water exposure?

Thanks to all for the input.

[Turtle]

So many options, so little time. Before addressing some of those questions, I forgot to mention Alexander Bell's hydroplane as a 4th type of hull design. Not likely for this project, but it's a significant t to cross.
NEW HYDROPLANE SHIP.; Prof. Bell Announces Invention That May Break Cr... - Article Preview - The New York Times

On the power, Freezy & I have discussed some of the pertinent battery capacity issues over here, starting at post #171: >> http://hypography.com/forums/technol...energy-18.html

You might look into using one or more commercially available trolling motors and give way the idea of having a direct mechanical link to your pedal system. Trolling Motors & Electric Trolling Motors : Cabelas

Nothing about boat equipment is cheap. Last boat I worked on I paid $40 for just 1 quart of marine grade hull paint. Cha-ching! If you're going in the ocean, all metal fasteners must be stainless steel or marine Naval bronze in order to have any chance against the salt water. There is never a question of if things will fail, but only questions of when. Constant maintenance is required to slow the process.

Looking forward to those designs.

[CraigD]

Originally Posted by LaurieAG

Actually you can make a workable dinghy in about 24 hours with some chicken wire, sand, cement and a bit of effort. The following site has plans for a ferro 12 footer.

Wow, Laurie! That 12’ keel boat is both one of the smallest concrete boats I’ve every seen, and one of the smallest keelboats. I’ve seen quite a few large commercial powerboats with concrete hulls (a builder near my childhood sailing waters cranked out a small fleet of them, local story has it in the 1940s and 50s), but this one’s pretty special.

It’s also very heavy – 391 kg “designed”. My little centerboard boat’s loaded mass is about 150 kg (it’ll sail with 2 or 3 people, but not well with more than 1, and that one best not very heavy). It should go pretty well, having 125 ft^2 of sail, (vs. my boat’s 75, reducible via reefing points), but I’d think twice about at the Benford webpage’s suggestion to convert the design to a centerboard, as I’ve had some exhausting, athletic hiking struggles keeping mine upright for extended periods in serious winds. With a keel, you just sit and smile, let it heel, and trust in the keel to keep things good.

While a good building material for many reasons, I’m reluctant to recommend concrete for a low-power powerboat design, simply because I don’t think you can get it’s mass low enough (though building its internal rebars out of something lighter than steel rod could help).

Originally Posted by Turtle

That said, you guys may want to look into this guy's success pedaling a boat in an ocean: >> Man returns from round-the-world pedal boat trip after 13 years | the Daily Mail

I’d have to say, Jason Lewis’s Moksha, designed by pro naval architect Alan Boswell, seems a better design than I or an army of armatures could come up with. It’s 8 m long, ocean worthy, masses 370 kg empty and 850 fully loaded for an ocean crossing, and can make 3 knots (1.5 m/s) under one man’s pedaling power. She has this very nice design and constuction page, some highlights of which are:

• Built by 2 trained boatbuilders in a year
• Built using “cold molding” of strips of cedar, mahogany, some exotic Ecuadorian hardwoods, and epoxy resin, over throwaway hardwood forms
• Cost about $25,000
• The long prop-shaft drive design with all the bicycle parts had all sorts of problems during the Atlantic crossing (At one point, kept overheating and seizing, and had to be lubricated with dripped cooking oil!), and was replaced with a slightly customized commercial-off-the-shelf one-piece unit intended for recreational pedal boats, ending in a 14” steel prop. She carried 3, and could easily pull and repair or replace the unit from within the boat.

Originally Posted by redshift200

Hello to all. I am the person building the boat.

Hello and welcome to hypography! Thanks for sharing your very cool project.

Originally Posted by redshift200

I have found a material that I want to use for the hull. It is a polyester weave supported waterproof vinyl fabric (18oz) that is used for heavy duty applications like commercial tents. This fabric costs $120 for 10 yards. If anyone knows of a cheaper, more durable material, pls let me know.

Though there’s a lot to be said for working in what you know, I’ve never seen anything like the tent fabric over PVC pipe and chicken wire you describe, and would recommend you give serious thought to something more conventional, like fiberglass cloth. Depending on how many layers you use, this will cost from $1-10/square yard.

Originally Posted by redshift200

I am also looking at using some sort of hard plastic to make a skid guard in heavy wear areas of the hull, perhaps something like an frp (suggestions are welcomed here too).

You can make practically anything hard and waterproof with epoxy resin – the same stuff I’ve using to cover plywood with fiberglass, and Moksha’s builders used to glue together her cold-molded wood hull. It costs about $50/gallon, has 2 parts that you mix to make harden, and along with fiberglass cloth, can be found on lots of websites and marine stores.

Originally Posted by redshift200

The design issues that I have currently are…

I’ll just answer the easy ones, and the ones I think are most important…

Originally Posted by redshift200

I need to be able to determine the boats draft.

The draft of any boat can be determined taking its mass, calculating the volume of water that masses the same (fresh water masses 1000 kg/m^3, salt a little more, but best calculate everything for fresh water) then taking a drawing of its cross sections at regular intervals, and determining the submerged volume for different waterlines. The draft is just the distance from the waterline to the lowest part of the boat – normally the keel.

-How many batteries do I need? I would want to be able to cook (hot plate and toaster oven), distill h20, run climate control (space heater in cooler weather, fan in warm weather), make ice with a portable ice maker, run low voltage lighting at night (I want to use Christmas lights), run exterior headlamps when necessary (and perhaps a strobe to be visible to other vessels), run a computer (desktop) occasionally, run a portable mp3 player over computer (amplified) speakers, and have enough reserve to power the electric engine for 3 days (50 miles per day) or as much as possible (if 150 miles is too much to ask for). I was considering 8-10 batteries (deep cycle if I can afford them). And, what capacity inverter will I need for all this?

Originally Posted by redshift200

What horsepower electric engine do I need? I was considering 8hp or so.

That’s a lot of power for anything mainly human-powered!

A strong cyclist can typically crank out about 400 W (a bit over 1/2 HP) as long as they have food and water, and give bursts of around 800 W. So, to run an 8 hp motor for 1 hour, you’d need to pedal for 8 hours (or 2 people each pedal 4 hours, etc).

Restating what I said upthread, I’d strongly suggest you reconsider “reinventing the wheel” on oceangoing boats. The problem of man-only long-distance boats was solved many centuries ago, in the form of a sailboat. Though an electric motor is a great auxiliary for getting past windless spells, and confined maneuvering, the seas have practically unlimited of wind power reserves free for the taking. If, like Jason Lewis, you’re determined to set some sort of novel record, best of luck, and hope to help however I can. If you’re goal is just getting from port to port without using fuel, sailboats do that nicely – and are way easier on the legs than pedaling!

[redshift200]

I definitely hear ya about the sailboat having solved these problems, however I have a coulple of problems with it. 1. I don't know how to sail and don't have time to learn. 2. I want a boat that will not break apart, and I know a sailboat can. 3. I want this boat to be super lightweight, and from what I can see sailboats are very heavy.

I saw some recreational pedal boats online that are like 200lbs. Now they don't have the space that I want, but that is light. I want this boat to be the most comfortable thing possible, so I am willing to be educated if something better exists, but it seems to me that sails would be a pain because they require lots of supervision. Though, I don't know much about it.

I am trying to create the best boat that I can for a tight bugdet. I may have 1500-2000 dollars to spend and a month to build it. Considering my circumstances and budget, if I have to buy an aluminum fishing boat, put some oars on it, and cover it with a tarp, then I will do that, but I hope to have something more comfortable.

One thing that I do have on my side is that I am now living in the middle of Katrina's wake, so I imagine that there are a lot of damaged boats and scrap around, and I have seen many boats that don't seem to be in operation. I have even thought of looking in the woods for something that may have washed inland. But, I still am interested in building something custom. It will have to be some sort of alternative design as I understand chicken wire, pvc, and vinyl, but don't understand stitch and glue and fiberglass so well, and I definely don't have 25 large and a year to build.

Fiberglass does seem really appealing, and I am inclined to pick up things fast. I have read some material that makes it sound easy and some stuff that makes it sound difficult and even hazardous.

My premise with this design is to build something out of common materials so that when repairs are needed I can scroung for what I need anywhere in the world for not so much money. I do want the boat to be very safe. From what I understand flotation foam is like magic; it will keep you afloat no matter what. The task then becomes to keep the passenger area of the boat dry and to keep materials from corroding.

The pvc pipe won't corrode. I will coat the chicken wire and all cables with liquid rubber grip. The vinyl tent material that I suggest seems to be very strong and abrasion resistant. I can seal the hull in this stuff so that no water should get in unless the hull is pierced. If the hull is pierced, then I should be able to easily glue or hot weld it.

I have a nack for taking non-standard materials and making something zanny work. I am a survivalist and think in terms of doing things custom and for myself. It seems to me that if I design and build the boat myself that I can better maintain it and repair it.

What I am discussing here is my wish list. I know that I will have to compromise, and perhaps I will have to compromise a lot. However, I would like to have a feather lite, super-strong, unsinkable boat. Concerning my desires for the battery bank, I am willing to be very conservative with energy usage. I will have to cook on the boat, and I insist on having a very reliable way (and a back up) for distilling water. Everything else, including electric propulsion is expendable.

I have an idea for generating electricity that I invite comment on. My idea is to make a four sided sail, four sails in a cross pattern. This should be very simple to make, very light and would rotate in the wind. This could charge the batteries, and I could cook (or use the computer) only when the sail turbine is generating enough energy to support it. But, I want to be energy independent, so I don't want to cook with my kerosene stove or anything like that.

I just read on a website about a gentleman that constructed an electric boat that will do 4 knots for 24 hours with 6 12v deep cycle batteries. This seems approachable to me. I intend to capture energy anywhere I can get it. One of the reasons that I wanted to use the paddlewheel is that I could park the boat on a stream and charge the batteries with the water current. I definitely want to use a prop though since I found this right angle gear box that I believe I can attatch axles to and then turn with bike chains (and there will be 2 pedelers). So I will make a small, light, deployable waterwheel to capture energy from streams to charge the batteries. This won't help me if I'm far away from shore, but at sea there should be plent of wind to move the sail turbine.

I am too new to the forum to post links yet, but when I can I will give links to this gear that I am proposing to use. And I think I have a tight design for the hull, but I have to get this scanner connected.

Thanks again,
T-Diddle

[redshift200]

I was looking over the material about the hpb that circumnavigted the globe. There are some major goal diffenences between what Jason was trying to accomplish in that documentation and what I am trying to accomplish. Firstly, I am not trying to achieve any sort of record. I would like to create a vessel that supports life in an enjoyable way. Secondly, I don't want to have a land basecamp, or work a job on land to support my boating habit. I am attempting to create a coastal survival platform. I would like the boat to be able to cross the ocean, but if it can't then I would be happy to explore US coasts, inland waterways, or whatever, as long as I can get out there and see what is going on in my world, and not just what is going on in my job and on tv. There is so much of our world that is being destroyed before scientists can document it, much less before the everyday man can explore and appreciate it.

A secondary goal that I have is being able to video-document what I see. This is one reason why I would like to have a sophisticated electrical/media/computer system. I don't care how fast the boat moves, as long as it can move consistently. I.e. the boat needs to be able to cut through surf, although how fast doesn't matter. I don't want to carry food for 150 days. I am into survivalism, so I would like to create a survival platform where the boat doesn't need to supply up for long periods. We will fish and gather food as we go. I am into fishing, gathering mollusks, seaweed, et cetera.

My girlfriend and I spent the fall in Maine, and we explored the beaches to the n'th degree...but, it was hard to access many beaches because of local laws, private property, trails that were hidden to outsiders, hostility towards outsiders, et. cetera. So then I decided that we needed a boat. It seems to me that there is a whole other world out there in waterways, islands, et cetera. We seemed to always be looking at a beach across some waterway that we couldn't cross. A good boat would nullify all of that.

[Turtle]

Originally Posted by redshift200

Hello to all. I am the person building the boat.

I am going to post my preliminary drawing as soon as I can get my scanner to work.

Currently I am planning to build a pvc frame, cover it with chicken wire (for reinforcement), and cover this with plastic fabric. I will put enough flotation foam in the boat to make it float in the event of a hull breach. ...

Thanks to all for the input.

Hi Red. You got me thinkin' some on your boat, , and by no little means because I've had a number of boat-building experiences. Rather than trot out the failures, I'll go with the most successful, to whit, a 17' wood framed canvas covered canoe I built with my Pa. You have mentioned a covering material over wire mesh on pvc frame. If you like what you have selected for the cover already then that's good enough, but canvas stretched and sewn wet & then doped with marine paint makes a durable repairable cover.

What I really came to post on however was to suggest you build your frame/wire/cover system and then use the spray in type foam to entirely fill the cavity. I used this type of foam a lot in the building industry to seal voids around plumbing pipes, framing, etcetera with good results. You can get little cans, or rent a gun and tank from a local equipment rental outfit.

For an all-around boating resource, I recommend Chapman Piloting, Seamanship and Small Boat Handling, the veritable bible of boating. Older or used copies haven't changed a lot over the years and are cheaper.

That's all I got; anchors away.

PS I'd try to find a plastic mesh, perhaps like veggie/fruit bags, to replace the chicken wire. The wire will first loose the galvanizing zinc to electrolysis in salt water and then the soft iron core to rust.

[Cedars]

Originally Posted by Turtle

What I really came to post on however was to suggest you build your frame/wire/cover system and then use the spray in type foam to entirely fill the cavity. I used this type of foam a lot in the building industry to seal voids around plumbing pipes, framing, etcetera with good results. You can get little cans, or rent a gun and tank from a local equipment rental outfit.

PS I'd try to find a plastic mesh, perhaps like veggie/fruit bags, to replace the chicken wire. The wire will first loose the galvanizing zinc to electrolysis in salt water and then the soft iron core to rust.

The foam is a good idea. A friend of my brother travels all over the world spraying one type of that stuff on oil rigs so some types hold up under salt water for sure. I know they work with it underwater too cuz he had to take diving courses. I would also suggest filling any pvc tubing with that stuff for its extra buoyancy, then a hole in a tube wouldnt fill with water. Plus you can sand/cut it for shaping and paint over it.

One piece to consider. I was using that to shape things for an aquarium that I never finished. Using saran wrap, I could mold the foam stuff to the corners of the glass and it peels off the plastic easily. So I would test it on various types of plastic to make sure it adheres to the surface. I know when they filled my bros fenders and doors with the stuff, they used plastic around the window gear so he could roll his windows down. They were pretty sure the car would float when they were done but never got to test it.

[freeztar]

First of all, glad you made it Todd! It seems your ideas have advanced quite a bit and it will be interesting to see the drawings.

Originally Posted by Turtle

If you like what you have selected for the cover already then that's good enough, but canvas stretched and sewn wet & then doped with marine paint makes a durable repairable cover.

So between canvas and vinyl tent material, I guess it comes down to cost, durability, and weight. Does the marine paint just protect the canvas from degradation? Is there something cheaper?

What I really came to post on however was to suggest you build your frame/wire/cover system and then use the spray in type foam to entirely fill the cavity. I used this type of foam a lot in the building industry to seal voids around plumbing pipes, framing, etcetera with good results. You can get little cans, or rent a gun and tank from a local equipment rental outfit.

I believe that is pretty much his plan. The flotation foam we have researched is 10 gallons for ~$100 iirc. Buying small cans would not be economical, but perhaps the gun and tank might be.

For an all-around boating resource, I recommend Chapman Piloting, Seamanship and Small Boat Handling, the veritable bible of boating. Older or used copies haven't changed a lot over the years and are cheaper.

To add to the resources, I found this forum site that is all about boat design and construction. You might want to echo this thread over there.
Construction - Boat Design Forums

PS I'd try to find a plastic mesh, perhaps like veggie/fruit bags, to replace the chicken wire. The wire will first loose the galvanizing zinc to electrolysis in salt water and then the soft iron core to rust.

He mentioned coating the wire with rubber (the same stuff you dip screwdriver handles in to get a rubberized grip). I'm not sure how flexible that rubber is, but if it is prone to cracking it could definitely become an issue.