[Boerseun]

Electric cars won't achieve anything, unless charged with clean power. If your grid is fed with coal- or oil burning plants, you're simply transporting the pollution somewhere else. The powerplant now has to burn more coal because you've purchased an electric "environmentally friendly" car. Which achieves nada - the plant will have to burn more energy to produce your charge than you would have gotten in a full tank of gas, producing more pollution.

Switching to electric vehicles without changing our entire electricity supply source from fossil to nuclear or renewable/non-polluting is utterly pointless.

If an entire city were to switch to electric, and everybody parked their cars in their garages, plugged them in so they can be ready and charged for the morning commute, it will completely crash the grid. Charging an electric vehicle is no small feat, not even close to anything you charge on a daily basis. An electric vehicle is not a cellphone. Due to the energy requirements to shift a couple of tons around town for a few hundred miles, it will suck the grid to kingdom come. I bet if you plug in your car you'll hear your electric meter ticking from miles away. People are switching to energy saving lightbulbs, because they might save a few pennies on using lower Wattage per bulb, but are willing to purchase an electric vehicle that will make your meter run as if you've got ten ovens running on full blast for ten hours at a stretch, every day. If every house in every street had ten ovens running full-blast, the grid will crash.

Swithching to electric without re-engineering the entire electricity supply grid, from source to domestic power outlet, is futile and pointless - the grid can't handle it.

Hydrogen is the way to go, if we can get a cheaper and easier way of splittin' those pesky and sticky H atoms of the fat O than electrolysis - which also, once again, merely transports the pollution, making the point rather moot.

The most obvious answer would be to drive less. Shop over the net, telecommute, and when you actually have to go somewhere, use a bicycle if close by, or public transport.

[Moontanman]

Originally Posted by Boerseun

Electric cars won't achieve anything, unless charged with clean power. If your grid is fed with coal- or oil burning plants, you're simply transporting the pollution somewhere else. The powerplant now has to burn more coal because you've purchased an electric "environmentally friendly" car. Which achieves nada - the plant will have to burn more energy to produce your charge than you would have gotten in a full tank of gas, producing more pollution.

Switching to electric vehicles without changing our entire electricity supply source from fossil to nuclear or renewable/non-polluting is utterly pointless.

If an entire city were to switch to electric, and everybody parked their cars in their garages, plugged them in so they can be ready and charged for the morning commute, it will completely crash the grid. Charging an electric vehicle is no small feat, not even close to anything you charge on a daily basis. An electric vehicle is not a cellphone. Due to the energy requirements to shift a couple of tons around town for a few hundred miles, it will suck the grid to kingdom come. I bet if you plug in your car you'll hear your electric meter ticking from miles away. People are switching to energy saving lightbulbs, because they might save a few pennies on using lower Wattage per bulb, but are willing to purchase an electric vehicle that will make your meter run as if you've got ten ovens running on full blast for ten hours at a stretch, every day. If every house in every street had ten ovens running full-blast, the grid will crash.

Swithching to electric without re-engineering the entire electricity supply grid, from source to domestic power outlet, is futile and pointless - the grid can't handle it.

Hydrogen is the way to go, if we can get a cheaper and easier way of splittin' those pesky and sticky H atoms of the fat O than electrolysis - which also, once again, merely transports the pollution, making the point rather moot.

The most obvious answer would be to drive less. Shop over the net, telecommute, and when you actually have to go somewhere, use a bicycle if close by, or public transport.

Actually, if you had watched the NOVA show you would have found out that charging an electric car at night not only costs very little (a little over a dollar a night) but since it is being charged in off peak time it actually allows the power company to maintain a more efficient power supply. I thought it was counterintuitive as well but that is what they said.

[Zythryn]

Originally Posted by Boerseun

Electric cars won't achieve anything, unless charged with clean power. If your grid is fed with coal- or oil burning plants, you're simply transporting the pollution somewhere else.

This point has been raised and refuted before. It is simply not true as the electric engine is more efficient than the internal combustion engine (ICE) well to wheel.

Even if there was no efficiency gain, coal and oil only accounts for 53% of electricity generation in the US. So 47% of it is 'cleaner'.

Originally Posted by Boerseun

The powerplant now has to burn more coal because you've purchased an electric "environmentally friendly" car.

Not true if you are charging at night (when most people would). At night many power plants continue operations even though demand has dropped below the rate they supply the energy. Basically wasting some of that energy. This way it has a use

Originally Posted by Boerseun

Switching to electric vehicles without changing our entire electricity supply source from fossil to nuclear or renewable/non-polluting is utterly pointless.

This seems a bit of a straw man argument. Do you expect the entire transportation fleet to switch to EVs in one day? What if I am the only one to switch, would it still be entirely pointless?

Originally Posted by Boerseun

If an entire city were to switch to electric, and everybody parked their cars in their garages, plugged them in so they can be ready and charged for the morning commute, it will completely crash the grid.

Good thing no one thinks that would be possible to do
Adoption of EVs will not occur overnight. It will start slow and grow over time giving the grid time to grow.
In addition, with the wasted energy now there is a lot of slack which the early adopters can use with NO additional power production needed.

Originally Posted by Boerseun

Charging an electric vehicle is no small feat, not even close to anything you charge on a daily basis.

I think you overstate the magnitude of this. How much energy is required to heat a swimming pool?

Originally Posted by Boerseun

People are switching to energy saving lightbulbs, because they might save a few pennies on using lower Wattage per bulb, but are willing to purchase an electric vehicle that will make your meter run as if you've got ten ovens running on full blast for ten hours at a stretch, every day. If every house in every street had ten ovens running full-blast, the grid will crash.

Interesting position, lets try it out:
Measuring my oven on 'full blast' it uses 2.5Kw. So 10 ovens on 'full blast' would be 25Kw. For 10 hours a day that would be 250Kwh.
For now, lets stick to one house on the block.
Now, if I could afford one, my Tesla Roadster would have a 52Kw battery. So if I had to charge it from empty to full every day that would be a total of... 52Kwh. A tad less than you 250Kwh.
But wait, there's more!
Since the average travel distance per day is less than 220miles (the range) the amount needed to charge is not the full 52Kw. For me I would need to recharge every 4 or 5 days. Lets give your position the benifit and say 4 days. So 52Kw/4=... 13Kw. (Hey, that is about the maximum return on my solar panels!!).
[/quote]

Originally Posted by Boerseun

Swithching to electric without re-engineering the entire electricity supply grid, from source to domestic power outlet, is futile and pointless - the grid can't handle it.

I think I have shown it can. As for everyone driving an EV, it will never happen. And as more people use EVs the grid can grow. It won't happen overnight.

Originally Posted by Boerseun

The most obvious answer would be to drive less. Shop over the net, telecommute, and when you actually have to go somewhere, use a bicycle if close by, or public transport.

Here I agree with you completely. These are wonderful and helpful ideas. Combined with EVs I think the whole picture gets even better.

[InfiniteNow]

In addition to "charging at night," it sure is a lot simpler to replace one centralized grid with clean energy than to replace the petrol station infrastructure, each gas station on each corner of each street in every town...

It then becomes an issue of building one single new power plant, instead of replacing millions of gas stations.

Also, if someone has renewable energy available at home, like solar panels on the roof, the cars can just as easily be charged with that.

I appreciate the need for clear and critical logic, but there are pretty real and simple solutions already available for many, if not most, of these "obstacles."

[Zythryn]

Originally Posted by InfiniteNow

In addition to "charging at night," it sure is a lot simpler to replace one centralized grid with clean energy than to replace the petrol station infrastructure, each gas station on each corner of each street in every town...

It then becomes an issue of building one single new power plant, instead of replacing millions of gas stations.

Also, if someone has renewable energy available at home, like solar panels on the roof, the cars can just as easily be charged with that.

I appreciate the need for clear and critical logic, but there are pretty real and simple solutions already available for many, if not most, of these "obstacles."

Excellent points Infi. As the grid gradually gets cleaner, the 'fuel' for EVs automatically does so as well.
No reformulations needed, no annual reformulations for winter/summer blends and the infrastructure is in place right now. Yes, it will eventually need to be beefed up, but the structure exists.

[Euclidean-Paradox]

May I add that even if we assume that most of the energy does come from oil and coal powerplants to power these cars, overall emissions would still be lower with electric cars than with petrol cars because as someone pointed out it is much more efficient. Of course, we are beginning to move away from fossil fuels and toward renewables and nuclear so it is kind of a moot point.

[Moontanman]

I'm wondering about the road taxes that are paid through the purchase of gasoline. If you have an electric car you charge from the grid how will they get their taxes? Don't think for a moment they are going to let you slide on taxes because you drive an electric car! If you drive 15,000 miles a year in NC you could pay as much as 670 dollars a year just in Gas taxes! Yes they will get that money some way.

[InfiniteNow]

I ran across this interesting idea today here, where the following was shared:


Make Ethanol in Your Own Backyard

A Silicon Valley start-up called E-Fuel is showing exactly how ethanol can live up to its name as "the people´s fuel." The company recently announced that it will soon start selling a home ethanol system, the E-Fuel 100 MicoFueler, which will allow anyone to make ethanol from sugar, water, yeast, and electricity in their own backyard.