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Old 10-09-2008   #1 (permalink)
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Future of Air-travel

What is the future for air travel given peak-oil, CO2 emissions, and the general world-wide enegy use?

I only seized on the topic a bit ago and I haven't done a lot of research yet, but maybe the commercial jet age is done for. Renewable fuels in piston engine planes? Airships? We don't need to fly anyway? I dunno. Whatcha think bink?

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In the 5th edition of his book on commercial aviation John Frederick notes that jets “consume more fuel in relation to loads carried and distances flown” as compared with both piston-powered and turboprop-powered aircraft (Frederick 1961; p. 18).
http://www.transportenvironment.org/...nd_out/lid:398

Diesel? Aircraft diesel engine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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Old 10-09-2008   #2 (permalink)
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Re: Future of Air-travel

Cool topic!

I like the idea of airships. Modified blimps with simple motors. It would obviously take a lot longer to reach a destination, but it could be CO2-free and very cost effective. What about a floating buckeyball made out of photovoltaic material?


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Old 10-09-2008   #3 (permalink)
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Arrow Re: Future of Air-travel

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Originally Posted by freeztar View Post
Cool topic!

I like the idea of airships. Modified blimps with simple motors. It would obviously take a lot longer to reach a destination, but it could be CO2-free and very cost effective. What about a floating buckeyball made out of photovoltaic material?
Ahhh the dreams... That's why I included airships, but alas it does not look promising. Geodesic sphere maybe ; stability of so massive a bag as required is a major hurdle with current designs. Some kinda gyro stabalization like Segue I suspect? Then there is the nasty fact Helium is a finite resource and Hydrogen is flammable.

If we cut out the jets, then there go the contrails (do piston engine planes leave contrails? ), and by all accounts the contrails are dampening the rate of global temperature rise.

Overall, I think we don't have a good reason to fly 60% or more of the time. Goll durn waste is all it is and efficient waste is still waste. In my day.... :


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Old 10-09-2008   #4 (permalink)
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Re: Future of Air-travel

I have two words for this topic:

~~~~~>>Maglev Trains>>

I think a comfortable high speed ride across the countryside sounds pretty good.

As long as we can figure our how to minimize frequent stops.


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Old 10-09-2008   #5 (permalink)
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Talking Re: Future of Air-travel

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Originally Posted by REASON View Post
I have two words for this topic:

~~~~~>>Maglev Trains>>

I think a comfortable high speed ride across the countryside sounds pretty good.

As long as we can figure our how to minimize frequent stops.
I'm with you on some kind of trains. Whatever the particulars, I think the computer control is the answer here to the general problem of controlling the flow.

Refits of existing highways and electric computer controlled buses and 'pods'? (I saw someone mention this here somewhere but can't find it for reference. )

So BOT, the future of commercial air travel is in the dumper then? If we were meant to fly we'd have grown wings by now.


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Old 10-12-2008   #6 (permalink)
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Re: Future of Air-travel

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Originally Posted by Turtle View Post
Ahhh the dreams... That's why I included airships, but alas it does not look promising.
It might be our only option once fuel gets low.

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Geodesic sphere maybe
Righto

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stability of so massive a bag as required is a major hurdle with current designs.
I must profess that I'm not too up to date on current designs, but I'll do some reading.

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Then there is the nasty fact Helium is a finite resource and Hydrogen is flammable.
Yes, but I hold onto the hope that H can be used in some other way (economically)?
Quote:
Overall, I think we don't have a good reason to fly 60% or more of the time. Goll durn waste is all it is and efficient waste is still waste. In my day.... :
Indeed. Get a webcam and get on skype. That could possibly eliminate 1/3 of all business travel.


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Old 10-12-2008   #7 (permalink)
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Arrow Re: Future of Air-travel

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Originally Posted by freeztar View Post
It might be our only option once fuel gets low.
I'm thinking bio-fuel is fine, at least in the piston engines. I don't know about bio-jet-fuel, but I don't like the contrails in any case.

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Originally Posted by freeztarinan
Righto [on geodesic sphere]
That was inadvertant pedantism on my part. Gesundheit!

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Originally Posted by freeztarman
I must profess that I'm not too up to date on current designs, but I'll do some reading.
Roger. Mostly cigar shape, but some delta-wing experiments I think as well as spheres. Let me know what you find.

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Originally Posted by freeztarogen
Yes, but I hold onto the hope that H can be used in some other way (economically)?
Me too. Hope is all that's keeping me alive...that and a little breathing from time to time.

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Originally Posted by freeztaruter
Indeed. Get a webcam and get on skype. That could possibly eliminate 1/3 of all business travel.
I'm not familiar with that Skype thingy, but if it saves energy and doesn't pollute as much as otherwise, then rock on.

Then there is the over ocean jet travel. That's gotta go. Large piston planes, our airships or go by sailing ship (OT: some hybrid like Cousteaus Alcyone perhaps? )

In the mean time, we need to cut out all the uneccessary jet flights. Yeah, I'm talking to you John Travolta!! )


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Old 10-13-2008   #8 (permalink)
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Re: Future of Air-travel

One that I like:
Reaction Engines Limited :: LAPCAT A2 Facts and Figures

I recalculated the use of energy per seat per kilometre. Its high, its about 17 MJ.
Current jet airplanes have this figure somewhere around 1 - 1.5
Using about the same calculations, my car which uses 5l/100km gets 2MJ figure if I drive alone.

Jets vs pistons
Jets go at very high altitudes at high speeds (0.8 mach+) and are about as efficient as piston/propeller planes which go at lower attitudes at lower speeds(0.5 mach). By efficient I mean that they have about the same consumption per seat per kilometre. So which would you choose if you want to get somewhere?

I think that air-travel will stay course someone will always want to get somewhere very quickly. Although various maglev trains are possible, just to build a track for it requires massive amounts of of energy and materials.


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Old 10-13-2008   #9 (permalink)
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Re: Future of Air-travel

Trans-oceanic commercial travel -- Airships -- Hot Air.

I saw a detailed analysis of this once. Consider a geodesic sphere about 1 mile in diameter. The skin should be a flexible glass-like material that shares this property with ordinary glass: it reflects infrared light. This means that sunlight will heat the air within, making it less dense than the air outside. This sphere will float at altitudes between 8,000 and 28,000 feet, even though the entire structure will mass hundreds of thousands of tons!

On the interior of the sphere, where the "equator" would be, build a small "town" of buildings, homes, shops, restaurants and hotel rooms--extending all around the equator. This will house both the travelers and the residents who make their living maintaining the floating Bucky sphere (FBS). Also build a series of shelves that extend inward from the skin about 200 yards. This is where the helicopters will land and embark and disembark the travelers. (If you're metric, just translate 1 yard = 1 meter.)

At the bottom of the FBS, leave open a circular hole about 1/4 mile wide. This will not cause the FBS to fall, because hot air rises. At each destination, helicopters will ascend from the ground, enter the hole and land on the interior shelves and drop off their travelers. Then they would pick up those who are disembarking, take off and descend back through the hole and land on the ground.

Altitude control of the FBS would be via a series of electrically operated vents near the top (to drop the FBS); and via the photovoltaic panels that occupy 10% of the FBS surface. The PV panels can be temporarily swiveled to allow more sunlight in (to raise the FBS).

There is plenty of room on the FBS "equatorial shelf", as you have 3.14 linear miles of "equator" times 200 yards of width. This yields more than one million square yards of area. Even if 50% of this area was residential and commercial buildings , you would have plenty of room for the helicopters. This leaves room (and to spare) for 8 helicopter landing fields, each 400 yards by 150 yards.

The residential and commercial area of the equatorial shelf could be several stories tall, built just inside and against the outer skin. If we choose 3 stories, then we have about 1.6 million square yards of living space. If half of that was reserved for residents and passengers, 800,000 square yards would accomodate 8,000 people (at 100 square yards per person). This would reflect a resident population of about 4,000 -- sufficient for service trades in addition to the onboard maintainance necessary. The other 4,000 people would be the travelers.

The FBS would mostly travel with the jet streams, at speeds of less than 200 mph. It could descend out of the jet stream, bringing their relative speed down to local windspeed, transfer passengers by helicopter, then ascend back into the jet stream to continue its undending voyage. And unending it would be, for the FBS would never -- COULD never -- land. Once constructed and launched, it floats forever, until it crashes.

This would make intercontinental travel much slower, and you would have to begin and end your jaunts at cities near the jet stream. You would have to time your departure to the schedule of the FBS as it circles the globe. The FBS is powered entirely by solar energy and has no engines, no motive power of any kind.

But what a frakin adventure!!


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Last edited by Pyrotex; 10-13-2008 at 01:26 PM..
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Old 10-13-2008   #10 (permalink)
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Re: Future of Air-travel

What a neat idea Pyro!

But...err...what happens at night?

How hot is it inside, for the residents?

Why don't greenhouses float away?


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