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Old 12-03-2008   #11 (permalink)
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Re: Let's Build a Hybrid Cycle

Have you seen this approach? Looks like a cool design.
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Old 12-04-2008   #12 (permalink)
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Re: Let's Build a Hybrid Cycle

Well giving it a quick thought here are some idea's for you to consider.

The main thing that I think that will be holding you back is the size of the hub itself. For one it is too small in order to provide an kind of satisfactory torque. Also, the size of the tire creates problems for a driving gear to be placed on the outer ring near the rim.

If you have a very good machine shop I would attempt to build a larger hub that leaves a hollow with about an 8 to 10 inch diameter.

You would have to create a set of two precision rings where some form of a ball or needle bearing could roll between these two rings. The inner ring acting as the sold ring that attatches directly to the forks and the outter ring acting as the hub where the spokes thread into.

With this form of a setup you would have a better combination of tourque and effective gear ratio. Also the 10 inch open space would allow an area to place an electric engine that could be hooked up to the rotating ring to allow for a direct drive from the motor to the hub.

One could also put the battery(s) inside the open hub and this excludes any problems of getting an electric current to transport through any kind of rotating system.

I do believe you could remove the rear drive system of sprockets and gears and replace it with an electrical generator that transports power to the engine located in the hub.

The interesting thing with this is that one could use certain regulators to maintain an optimum pedaling speed regardless of the bicycles velocity.

In my opinion as a life time motocross rider/racer and mechanic this would be your best likely application. As long as you can buld a precision hub/bearing system as mentioned that operates with very low frictino..

Infact it would be even more amazing to create some kind of a magnetically levitating hub bearing, so that the engine IS the bearing and the driving force now that would be cool.

Hope this gives you some ideas.
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Old 12-04-2008   #13 (permalink)
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Re: Let's Build a Hybrid Cycle

Quote:
Originally Posted by arkain101 View Post
Well giving it a quick thought here are some idea's for you to consider.

The main thing that I think that will be holding you back is the size of the hub itself. For one it is too small in order to provide an kind of satisfactory torque. Also, the size of the tire creates problems for a driving gear to be placed on the outer ring near the rim.
"gear"? why bother to gear an electric motor? parts=losses. I'll assume you mean the small hub on that youtube video...

Quote:
Originally Posted by arkain101 View Post
If you have a very good machine shop I would attempt to build a larger hub that leaves a hollow with about an 8 to 10 inch diameter.

You would have to create a set of two precision rings where some form of a ball or needle bearing could roll between these two rings. The inner ring acting as the sold ring that attatches directly to the forks and the outter ring acting as the hub where the spokes thread into.

With this form of a setup you would have a better combination of tourque and effective gear ratio. Also the 10 inch open space would allow an area to place an electric engine that could be hooked up to the rotating ring to allow for a direct drive from the motor to the hub...In my opinion as a life time motocross rider/racer and mechanic this would be your best likely application. As long as you can buld a precision hub/bearing system as mentioned that operates with very low frictino..
got mspaint or a scanner? I'd like to see a cocktail-napkin of this to help me visualise.

Quote:
Originally Posted by arkain101 View Post
One could also put the battery(s) inside the open hub and this excludes any problems of getting an electric current to transport through any kind of rotating system.
I had thought of embedding the pwer pack as part of the wheel-motor but this still requires some form of "trip" to complete/interrupt/reverse the circuit. I have considered an inductive activator but this adds a level of complexity in the controll system I think would outweigh any benifits of the brushless design. also, balancing the increased mass of the wheel could turn into quite the bitch! more mass=more centrifugal force.

Quote:
Originally Posted by arkain101 View Post
I do believe you could remove the rear drive system of sprockets and gears and replace it with an electrical generator that transports power to the engine located in the hub.

The interesting thing with this is that one could use certain regulators to maintain an optimum pedaling speed regardless of the bicycles velocity.
major problem with this I think is the lack of backup drive should the electrics fail.


Quote:
Originally Posted by arkain101 View Post
Infact it would be even more amazing to create some kind of a magnetically levitating hub bearing, so that the engine IS the bearing and the driving force now that would be cool.
check this: Team Solid-state
alas theory seems to indicate the diamagnetic effects of bismuth(strongest diamagnetic element) are still short of useful levitation/weight ratio for this kind of application (on 1/6 or micro gravity this may be another story). the other option being a levitation system akin to a monorail but that only works in motion...

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Old 12-05-2008   #14 (permalink)
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Re: Let's Build a Hybrid Cycle

I don't have a very good drawing program on this macbook. But here is a quick image.

The red is the forks. The blue is the engine, battery combo. The black is the tire and the hub/bearing.
Attached Thumbnails
Let's Build a Hybrid Cycle-bike.jpeg  

Last edited by arkain101; 12-05-2008 at 10:47 AM..
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Old 12-05-2008   #15 (permalink)
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Re: Let's Build a Hybrid Cycle

Magnetic field
Lorentz Force
Torques
Electric Motors (DC)


Ahh soo informative, now to figure out 'latex'...


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Old 12-22-2008   #16 (permalink)
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Re: Let's Build a Hybrid Cycle

Any progress?


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Old 12-23-2008   #17 (permalink)
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Re: Let's Build a Hybrid Cycle

That's some pretty schweet linkage der Mr. GAHD...watched dat one and a few others....most amusing is watching my wife watch me watch trying to figure out just what the heck is so interesting bout the vids...inflating a tire is rocket science to her....But that's ok cuz I love her and besides it makes me look realllly
smart to her....sides I like playin the hero.


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Old 03-23-2009   #18 (permalink)
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Re: Let's Build a Hybrid Cycle

Lol, gahd, latex is no harder then html, so if you need help figuring it out, gimme a pm, i'll put some material together if you are having trouble

Gahd, you probably should get a small brushless motor with good response and gear it down, just direct gear it and you will get very little loss, most electric cars, including the X1 are geared, its a single gear yes, and they still claim direct drive...

Things to consider:
batteries, like the crazy lithium ions used in the X1 prototype, they are biodegradable, which is cool, but also, they provide a ton of power for their size, and they should fit in the frame of your bike, no prob

you should consider weight, or rather lighten the bike as much as you can, the lighter you get it, the more efficient it gets (but hell you would know that). You can probably make a huge reduction in weight (relative ofcourse to the bike's weight) if you take off the pedals, and the rear wheel gears and change to a much more simplistic hub. Also decrease the rear tyre thickness to a road tire, and also run road tires on the front, on road (and i am assuming you are building this contraption as an alternative to scooters) you get better traction and smoother roll with a smoother tire. Another thing to think about are spokes, they are usually steel, you can switch out for some aluminum ones to once again, save on weight.


a small, but highly efficient (well as efficient as you can get it) solar charging system will extend your range on a sunny day, but do consider that you will want to plug the sucker in to charge it.

also i think simpler is better, i saw your first thought on solenoids and perma magnets, and some other designs, think about building everything into the wheel, just keeping the power source outside (whether attached or inserted into the frame is up to you (this is for better weight distribution), then you have to design 2 things, a motor-fork linkage, because a part of the motor will have to be kept in place to rotate the wheel, and a wheel, at this point you would probably be better off with a non-spoked wheel, that will fit your bike (you can make it more or less standard). with a simple hub design, you should be able to put a gear on an axle (which you will have to put in the hub, though nothing too crazy here), and a shroud, to protect both motor and the drive mechanism from the environment.

I dont think this project is undoable, infact if i were any closer, i would definitely volunteer to help with building a prototype, but as i said, i tend to think, at least in mechanics, simpler=better, well, most of the time, more efficient. But dont confuse "simpler" with "too simple", i'm the guy who takes a "too simple" idea and after making it "simpler" by adding parts, figures out better linkage for a height-adjustable wind turbine (linkage worked in my mini model, but the guy ended up getting a standard windmill, but whatever, i got the concept, and it would be cool to build :P )


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Old 03-25-2009   #19 (permalink)
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Question The Siemens eCorner

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Originally Posted by Roadam View Post
Any progress?
Ditto that.

Belovedlife’s post in the engineering forum and alexander’s bump in this thread got me to thinking that it’s been a few years since “motor in wheel” systems from major manufacturers, like Siemens eCorner, appeared in the news. I wonder if any of them have made it to any kind of market, or better yet, into junkyards (maybe the exotic kind found in university engineering buildings), yet?


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Old 03-26-2009   #20 (permalink)
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Re: The Siemens eCorner

oooh, ooh how about a compressed air motor and drive system, like in the european compressed air cars.

Start with mounting a 88ft^3, 4500psi carbon fiber air tank
then the fun of designing an ultra small, rotary compressed air motor, that will be small enough to fit in the wheel, but still spin fast enough to be able to, when geared down, drive you with some, perhaps fairly significant speed (at 4500psi, you dont need a hell of a lot of air to drive it) by the way (www.engineair.com.au for motor design ideas)

this way you fill the tank with compressed air, it makes no electro-magnetic pollution, it makes no noise, until you push the throttle, which will open up a pressure valve it up and propell you forward

juust another thought and since the motor will have to be mounted on the forks, you really dont have to worry about air line getting twisted, as long as it runs with the forks and has some play in it, it should not effect your steering

Juust another idea


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Microsoft, the leader in using innovative tactics to promote irksome experience, coupled with antiquated technology that's held together by a pyramid of makeshift afterthoughts.

Apple, the leader in using irksome tactics to promote innovative experience, coupled with an antiquated core that's enhanced by state-of-the-art afterthoughts.

Linux, the leader in not using any tactics to promote user-defined experience, coupled with state-of-the-art core enhanced by innovative afterthoughts.

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