Electric car engineering issues

[DFINITLYDISTRUBD]

robnibg - What's the minimum it would cost to build an electric car with a decent 200 mile range?

Zythryn -

Tesla's model S is planned to come in with a range of 160 miles for a total cost of $50k.

There has been no mention of how comfortable, fast powerful.....simply how cheap for the most basic rudamentary automotive transportation capable of traveling 200mi on a charge (assuming as it is not directly specified more implyed really).

In this day and age a 40 BHP internal combustion powered car would likely be laughed at....a twenty five horse, most definately would get you laughed at....my point there have been many capable (even wildly successful EX. Beetle, VW microbus) auto's that have been built with very minimal power and accessories...going minimal on all aspects of the vehicle might get you laughed at but will definately reduce the overall cost and weight of the machine...(which translates into more range/dollar thanks to less weight to move, less appetite from a smaller motor to move less weight, which means less battery is needed to git ya where yer tryin to go)...sadly we live in an era where even subcompacts are expected to b have high numbers and lots of gagets and gimickery.....you mention the Tesla cars... Do you really believe they're not planning to make a proffit on 'em?..and with the very limited production numbers (and of course due to a very limited market right now) a high enough margin to provide nice fat salaries for the executives as well as wages for the grunts who actually build the things?

ould you consider them to be the most basic of electric automotive transportation, Built to be as cheap as achievable, not as a fancy toy for the financially well off?

My point is under 12G is doable if you are willing to be saticefied with mediocre performance, a cheap light and compact structure, and very few amenities (in short an auto which is an auto nothing more).

You can but a two seater sport motorcycle with a top rated speed of 85MPH, lithium battery pack, and a range of roughly 85mi for around 6G (2.5G more for each additional battery packs)....which means you can easily build a compact two seater car with a top speed of 65 with a range of 195mi+/- for around 11G give or take for hired labor or the lack thereof... As I gots mad skillz as a mechanic, a welder and a fabricator I'd not hire anyone and would therefore save more cash than those less blessed

[Zythryn]

Originally Posted by DFINITLYDISTRUBD

My point is under 12G is doable if you are willing to be saticefied with mediocre performance, a cheap light and compact structure, and very few amenities (in short an auto which is an auto nothing more).

You only quoted half of rob's question. Here is the whole question and the reason why 12k is not possible today.

Originally Posted by robnibg

What's the minimum it would cost to build an electric car with a decent 200 mile range? Using either Lithium ion or Nano titanate batteries? What would batteries that large cost at current prices?

He stipulated Lithium Ion or Nano titanate batteries, he also stipulated 'car'.
With those stipulations in place, I don't believe you could get under 30k for the batteries alone.
I do agree with you that the price would come down if you eliminate niceties and strip the vehicle down to simple a device to get you from point A to point B.
And in the future (near future I hope) economy of scale will hopefully play a part in making batteries cheaper. But right now, I don't think it could be done as cheaply as you mentioned.

[DFINITLYDISTRUBD]

I specificaly mention Lithium batteries (Ion or sulfide eludes me ath the moment fairly certain Ion though)
and that based on the cost of a limited production bike (and additional batteries of the same type) which uses said batteries one could build a compact car for roughly 11G.

For less power there is an even a cheaper production L-ion powered bike but it's range is 65 Mi at 65MPH....But a compact car for two with a loss of top speed and possibly range one could pull the cost below 8G.

But again one must be willing to give up a great deal of whats taken for granted in todays autos.
I am....but then my fave mode of transport amounts to an engine, trans, frame, lights, fuel tank and a seat...no radio, no heat or air conditioning, no floor, no roof, no windows....a bare auto as described be me amounts to a cabin (likely polycarbonate or ABS on a simple tube chassis), essential lights, bare minimum wipers, bare minimum heat, small cheap tires, very basic rigid plastic seats (beach buggy style) and a bare minimum motor to push it all down the line (the unit from either of the afforementioned bikes would likely be a good candidate).

I shall seek the links and provide them when found (had em but the demise of my old computer has me screwed up at the moment as far as valued data such as this goes at the moment.)

BTW I'm not trying to argue with you merely clarify

[Zythryn]

Dfinitly, I have been doing some searching.
I found this 2 seater: Electric Motorsport :: Electric GPR
60 Mile range (economy not performance) for $8500.
It is a 3.3kwh Lithium pack.
So this vehicle weighs in at 285 lbs without a driver. Giving it about 18 Miles/kw. This is phenomenal.
However, if you double the pack, you add another 90 lbs. What does that do to the miles/kw? It won't double it, as the added weight will cut into your range. A third pack and you have added 65% (about) to the curb weight.
Then add the weight of two more wheels, a larger frame, the seats (no matter how cheap).
Now, I was going under the assumption this would be a street legal vehicle capable of highway speeds.
I do believe you could make a beach style dune buggy for 12k, but I don't see a street legal car for anywhere close to that.
Unfortunately the only prices I have found are at Wiki, $2.8-$5/watt. So if we need 200 miles and can get 5 miles/kwh (the Th!nk City gets about 4mile/kwh but could be trimmed down some), we need a 40kwh pack.
At those prices, the pack would cost ... ok, those wiki numbers must be out of date. I can't see them costing as much as my math comes out to, or I am tired and have really messed up my math
I'll keep searching for some accurate costs of large lithium ion batteries.
Rob, if you see this, could you further define 'car' for us? Are you asking about a street legal, highway capable car, or something else?

[Zythryn]

Ok, this sounds a bit more reasonable, but the source is still second hand.
EVDL Archive / Forum Interface - Electric Vehicle Discussion List
That seems to indicate (using the lesser of the two prices shown) a price around 63 cents/wh. So a 40Kwh pack would be about 25K.

[Roadam]

Tesla model S is advertised as the only car you will ever buy. Which may be, given easily replacable battery, and some parts that do wear out.

Thing with electrics is that you buy your mileage beforehand. With 63 cents/wh and about 2000 cycle life you get to about 7$ per 100 miles. Taken that you get 24kwh for 100 miles. 24kwh of electricity costs about 4$ at my place, so total is about 11$ per 100 miles. The diesel I am driving gets me around for about 10$/100 miles.

[robnibg]

By a car I meant a highway capable car, (like the model S). However, not necessarily that luxurious- something more like a volvo or any other large family car. Does anyone know what those nano titanate batteries cost? (And why doesn't Tesla use them?)

[Zythryn]

Originally Posted by Roadam

Thing with electrics is that you buy your mileage beforehand. With 63 cents/wh and about 2000 cycle life you get to about 7$ per 100 miles. Taken that you get 24kwh for 100 miles. 24kwh of electricity costs about 4$ at my place, so total is about 11$ per 100 miles. The diesel I am driving gets me around for about 10$/100 miles.

You aren't exactly comparing apples to apples though.
If you are going to add the cost of the battery to your calculations for an EV, you should also subtract the cost of maintanance you will avoid by using an EV over an ICE. Such as oil changes, spark plugs and most of any engine maintanance costs.
Also realize that the 'lifespan' for the batteries is defines when the batteries are reduced to a 75% range. So your 200 mile range would be cut to a 150 mile range, but the batteries still work.

[Zythryn]

Originally Posted by robnibg

By a car I meant a highway capable car, (like the model S). However, not necessarily that luxurious- something more like a volvo or any other large family car. Does anyone know what those nano titanate batteries cost? (And why doesn't Tesla use them?)

The nano titanate batteries are only made by altair nanosystems to my knowledge. So you have smaller production and likely much higher costs. However, I have not been able to find any site yet that lists the price.
I suspect low availability, little real world use/testing, and cost are the reasons Tesla isn't using them yet.

[Roadam]

Its true that I forgot some of the figures. Its just that all in all the electricity cost comes to about 30% of the cost per mile. So in that sense solar power could come in as the electricity can be pricier but still dont change the economics much.

I heard of the project Beter Place, I think its a neat idea. Like a car that costs 35k with battery can be like 20k without it and you pay for the battery usage.

Also you can simply build cheap 10k car without a battery and make it compatible.