My belief in Global Warming is getting shaky

[REASON]

Originally Posted by engineerdude

For those who care here's a link to an article discussing the faked data I referenced above.

IPCC Scientists Caught Producing False Data To Push Global Warming

What do you suppose is the motive for a collection of top climate scientists from around the world to come together to falsify data in support of AGW?

[Michaelangelica]

Paul joseph Watson
Propaganda Matrix.com - Exposing the New World Order and Government Sponsored Terrorism

Australia records 14th warmest year on record in 2008
Australia records 14th warmest year on record in 2008 | Herald Sun

2008 to be in top 10 warmest years say forecasters
2008 to be in top 10 warmest years say forecasters | Environment | Reuters

Top 11 Warmest Years On Record Have All Been In Last 13 Years
Top 11 Warmest Years On Record Have All Been In Last 13 Years

Australia records 14th warmest year on record in 2008
Australia records 14th warmest year on record in 2008 | Herald Sun

Whether such “mistakes” are made in genuine error or are part of a politicised push for man-made global warming to be universally accepted, and the evidence clearly suggests that latter is the case, the fact is that we can no longer tolerate the cry that “the debate is over” on man-made global warming in light of such gargantuan falsehoods

.
This from Paul Joseph Watson is laughable
BUT
None of the above really matters.
What matters is what is happening to sea temperatures, coral reefs, glaciers, the Arctic Ice shelf, permafrost etc
The trend and its influence on global climate change is the real worry. we would be silly to stick our heads in the sand and hope all will be well.
For the first time in man's history we have the power to affect and effect the whole global ecosphere.
How come you refuse to look at all this?
It is unlikely that the plantet can continue indefinitely suffering the industrial, chemical, engineering and population ravages of man.
At best we can argue about the time frame of major Global Climate Change.
Does it happen in 10, 20 30, 40, 50, 100+ years.
However it is flying in the face of reason to suggest that it is not happening at all.

[Moontanman]

it sounds like it's time to start building those orbiting toroidal space colonies!

[engineerdude]

Originally Posted by Michaelangelica

For the first time in man's history we have the power to affect and effect the whole global ecosphere.

No, we don't. People have no way to control weather - at least that's what I and a whole bunch of people think. The earth has been getting warmer since the glaciers started to melt, and it is likely to continue for a while more. Study it, project its consequences, deal with it, but don't lose sleep over it. The warming trend started when humans still lived in caves, and will continue until the earth decides its time for a change.

[Zythryn]

Engineerdude, your response is not to any post here.
Michaelangelica did not say we could control weather, he said we 'have the power to affect and effect the whole global ecosphere'.

Control is not the same as affect. I would think someone with a scientific background would realize this.
So, have you reformulated and conducted a more realistic test yet?

[REASON]

Originally Posted by engineerdude

The earth has been getting warmer since the glaciers started to melt, and it is likely to continue for a while more.

Really. So what's causing the glaciers to melt? I suppose you're going to tell me that the Earth just decided to melt it's glaciers. Because you know, the Earth is always making these crazy decisions.

Originally Posted by engineerdude

Study it, project its consequences, deal with it, but don't lose sleep over it. The warming trend started when humans still lived in caves, and will continue until the earth decides its time for a change.

There you go again. The Earth and it's huge brain is going to make some more decisions. Obviously you're not going to lose any sleep over it because you are comforted in the notion that someone else will deal with it. Or that the Earth will decide to fix it before it gets too uncomfortable. Maybe we should just pray harder. But anyway, who cares if people are suffering in some other part of the world, as long as your air conditioning is running, right?

Since you think that the fear of global warming or climate change is so absurd, maybe you would be willing to shed some light on the legitimate fears you have that modifying our patterns of behavior with regard to energy consumption is going to cost us so much money. Isn't that the primary fear you have if we allow ourselves to be suckered in by these devious climate scientists and their bogus claims of AGW? Explain how "green" technology is going to send us all to the poor house.

[belovelife]

just to inteject
i saw the supercomputer forecasts on the furure weather
i'm talking massive hurricanes
huge ones cat5 and larger
crusin across the pacific and destroying japan and chinas east coast
not to mention the atlantic ones
in your educated role of thermodynamics and calculated risk assesment
would it be wise to enlarge HAARP to old said huricanes in the ocean
this could also steer clouds to dessert locations that could be released by decreasing the pressure at intervals enough to let the rain go out

[engineerdude]

Originally Posted by REASON

. Isn't that the primary fear you have if we allow ourselves to be suckered in by these devious climate scientists and their bogus claims of AGW? Explain how "green" technology is going to send us all to the poor house.

OK, here's an example.

I'm on vacation in Hawaii. I read this in the paper this morning:

The University of Hawaii spent $50,000 to install roof-top solar cells, which will generate 24 kilowatt-hours of electricity daily. The University would like to generate 25% of it's electricity from renewable resources by 2020.

A link to basically the same article is here:
News from the University of Hawaii 10-Campus System

The problem is that a kilowatt hour of electricity costs a business like a University about 33 cents a kwH in Hawaii, which are the highest electric rates in the US. Where I live in Ohio it's only about 9 cents. A link to electric rates by state is here:
Electric Power Monthly - Average Retail Price of Electricity to Ultimate Customers by End-Use Sector, by State

But, even at Hawaii's 33 cents a KwH, it will take 17 years to generate enough electricity just to recover the costs of the solar cells. The effective life of the solar cells are only 5-10 years, so basically the cost can never be recovered. This project is equivalent to The University of Hawaii flushing $20,000 to $30,000 in cash money down the toilet.

If the project was in Ohio, it would be equivalent to a University there flushing $30,000 to $40,000 down the toilet.

If the University of Hawaii follows through with their goal of 25% renewable electricity, they will piss away millions.

This is why "Green" technology is ridiculous. As I have said many times, if someone can find a way to do something "Green" cheaper than what is available, we all will switch immediately. Until then, we are just wasting money. You want to use "Green" power? That's your choice. But don't make me pay for nonsense.

[Zythryn]

So your belief in global warming is dependent upon the cost effectiveness of possible solutions??

[TIC]

Originally Posted by engineerdude

Hi everybody,

I consider myself to be a life-long environmentalist. I have, in my own small ways, worked against aerosols, acid rain, general pollution, and of late Co2/Global Warming.

As a dad and a science-oriented person, I have always been able to logically explain scientific things to my kids. I have explained how optics work via experiments, illustrated Darwinian evolution via fossil records, I've mixed my baking soda and vinegar a dozen times.

To the point, I have not been able to explain man-made global warming to my eldest, 10 year old daughter. I simply can't find a shred of basic evidence that shows that carbon dioxide levels have any effect on how warm our planet is. I'm getting a little desperate.

I searched the most recent IPCC report. I really looked at the report for help - and there was nothing I could use. The charts of ice core samples only show Co2 follows changes in climate - not that changes in Co2 cause climate change. To me, all the report did was state the obvious - that the planet is getting warmer. Where I sit in Toledo Ohio used to be under an ice sheet a mile thick - no ice now. The earth seems to have been getting warmer for a long time, with no help from people. There were pages of calculations in the IPCC report - but I have seen pages of calculations that show just the opposite of their conclusions, and Britt my daughter wouldn't grasp the math anyways.

To top it all off, we have a small greenhouse, and Britt knows too well that greenhouses don't stay warm via "The Greenhouse Effect".

At risk is my daughter's (and to be honest my) belief in authority. My congresswoman, Britt's teacher, people in Bali, all seem to really believe that Co2 has something to do with global warming. Could the Nobel prize people really be wrong?

The earth is a complex system - maybe in a thousand years we can do math to predict the weather, but not now. I need some basic, easy to understand evidence. Please don't link me a webpage with one side's propoganda - I need some ammo here, as in "The last ice age was caused because there were too many plants which took all the Co2 out of the air, look at this data".

So, what am I missing?

Yer missing that She's only 10 years old!