My belief in Global Warming is getting shaky

[InfiniteNow]

Originally Posted by Turtle

My latest entrance into this fray was prefaced on some remarks that Craig offered, and while he & I apparently differ in our conclusion of where lies the best value considering the probable risk, I can assure you, dear readers, that if I have mis-characterized the mathematics of complex systems analysis that a correction is forthcoming.

You are a bright and gifted mathemagician, Turtle, so I sincerely doubt that you have mischaracterized the mathematics of complex systems analysis. Where your approach is abundantly lacking, however, is in the fact that you have yet to reference a specific model which exhibits faults, and you continue waving your hands about as if that action alone has some intrinsic merit.

I ask you... Have you even examined any specific models, or are you simply continuing to engage in tactics which parallel those of the George C. Marshal Institute on this issue?


He who does not trust enough, Will not be trusted.

[goku]

okay, so i've been trying to follow this, it's alot like a woody allen movie, forgive me if i misunderstood.

if UV rays hit CO2, then we shouldn't need UV protection in our sun block, sun glasses.

[freeztar]

Originally Posted by goku

okay, so i've been trying to follow this, it's alot like a woody allen movie, forgive me if i misunderstood.

if UV rays hit CO2, then we shouldn't need UV protection in our sun block, sun glasses.

You did misunderstand. allows UV to pass through relatively easily. The "problem" with is that it permits IR from escaping the atmosphere.

In other words, it reacts more with IR than UV. The atmospheric chemistry behind all of this is a demon on its own (ie for another thread/day).

[REASON]

Originally Posted by freeztar

You did misunderstand. allows UV to pass through relatively easily. The "problem" with is that it permits IR from escaping the atmosphere.

In other words, it reacts more with IR than UV. The atmospheric chemistry behind all of this is a demon on its own (ie for another thread/day).

Even more simply stated:

Solar (Sun) radiation (light energy) can come in and warm things up making heat energy which CO2 absorbs and doesn't let back out.

Think of it like the inside of your car or truck getting real hot on a sunny day. It's hotter inside than outside because you left the windows shut and the heat can't get out. Adding more and more greenhouse gases to the atmosphere (air) is like rolling up the windows in your truck.

The reason you need UV protection is because UV (ultraviolet) light will burn your skin and eyes.

[goku]

so, CO2 is not thermal conductive? does not pass the heat on to space?

[CraigD]

Originally Posted by goku

if UV rays hit CO2, then we shouldn't need UV protection in our sun block, sun glasses.

is not a very strong absorber of light in the visible ( to m) or shorter band of wavelength, such as ultra-violet ( to m). It absorbs most strongly in 3 narrow bands at , , and m wavelength, which is in the infra-red band ( to m). So it isn’t any good at protecting our skin from the sun’s harmful UV rays.

You can see how narrow and other greenhouse gasses’ absorption bands are bands are in sources like this one.

isn’t actually all that good at blocking IR rays, either. It only stops a small fraction of the IR rays emitted by Earth’s surface from escaping into space. For typical atmospheric densities, this small amount of absorption results in only small increases in temperature – a change of a few degrees out of an average global temperature of nearly 300 K.

The reasons nearly the entire scientific and lay community is so concerned about such a small increase in temperature are several, but are basically that the best climate models, and the people who interpret them, are nearly certain that these small increases will have significant effects, such as raising various costal sea levels enough to flood low-lying inhabited land, or changing ocean and air currents to make deserts where there were none before, or cause greening of current deserts. For the majority of plants and animal species on Earth, this may not be much of a problem – just move inland or away from or toward slowly forming deserts – but we humans are less flexible. We’re also a lot more emotionally sensitive to things like food source failures causing big fractions of our population to die – well, other animals may find this emotionally distressing, too, but unlike us, there’s little they can do about it.

[REASON]

Originally Posted by goku

so, CO2 is not thermal conductive? does not pass the heat on to space?

Here is a Wiki link for CO2. This should answer all your questions about this atmospheric gas.

[Michaelangelica]

Originally Posted by CraigD

is not a very strong absorber of light in the visible ( to [math]7 times it.

CraigD,
Any idea what is happening with all the stuff spewed out by jet plane trails-including water vapour?
tar

[CraigD]

Originally Posted by goku

so, CO2 is not thermal conductive? does not pass the heat on to space?

Planet-warming has very little to do with conduction.

Heat is transferred by conduction when the motion of molecules in one object - the “warm sink” – is transferred to molecules in another – the “cold sink”. Space, however, has hardly any molecules in it. It’s a nearly perfect vacuum, thus nearly a perfect thermal insulator. So heat is transferred between planets by conduction much less well than between hot coffee and the outside of a really good vacuum thermos bottle.

To cool an object insulated by vacuum, you’ve got to use radiation. The reason Earth isn’t incinerated by the incoming solar radiation it receives is that it reflects some of it, and absorbs and emits some more, the total rate (power) of the two being equal to that of the incoming solar (and an insignificant amount from other sources, such as stars) radiation.

Note that greenhouse gases don’t cause the Earth to radiate less into space – they just alter slightly the spectrum of its radiation, allowing it to “slip out between the cracks” in the absorption spectra of the atmosphere’s gasses. The problem is, this small alteration results in a small increase in atmospheric temperature, which can lead to big troubles for us surface-dwellers.

[CraigD]

Originally Posted by Michaelangelica

Any idea what is happening with all the stuff spewed out by jet plane trails-including water vapour?

Because water vapor is also a strong absorber and emitter of visible light (which is why we can see it), I believe the net effect of jet contrails is similar to that of clouds, cooling the Earth by preventing visible light from reaching the surface to heat it and be re-emitted as infrared.

Graphs like the one in linked to in post #119 are helpful in visualizing this.