My belief in Global Warming is getting shaky

[Michaelangelica]

Originally Posted by REASON

I'm continually confounded by these notions that ours, or any other planet for that matter, is capable of making decisions.

Planets don't think! They do not make decisions, and do not become concerned. They have no mind of their own.

They are simply a product of the forces of nature, as are we.

We, as human beings, are the ones capable of making decisions and becoming concerned. Considering this is the only inhabitable environment we are capable of existing in, we should be concerned about making wise decisions with regard to the way we treat this planet - Don't ya think?

It depends on whether you give any credence/belief to the Gaia Hypothesis or not.

. . .

Interesting article on weather

Many of us are blissfully unaware that almost the whole of human history -from the hunters and gatherers to the rise of towns and cities, the development of science and medicine -the whole of our great human pageant- has taken place within an atypical period of fair weather

Coming of Age in the Holocene -A Galaxy Insight

[Boof-head]

Originally Posted by REASON

I'm continually confounded by these notions that ours, or any other planet for that matter, is capable of making decisions.

Well, it isn't really all that confounding: the planet we're on will decide what to do about the rising levels of CO2, it doesn't have to even think about it (it doesn't have a capacity to "think" the way we do).

Like the ozone layer, say. That was a decision made by atmospheric chemistry - it decided to catalytically destroy a lot of the ozone with the CFCs we gave it, remember?

[pamela]

posted by Boof
Well, it isn't really all that confounding: the planet we're on will decide what to do about the rising levels of CO2, it doesn't have to even think about it (it doesn't have a capacity to "think" the way we do).

Like the ozone layer, say. That was a decision made by atmospheric chemistry - it decided to catalytically destroy a lot of the ozone with the CFCs we gave it, remember

Cause and effect should not be confused with the ability to reason or make a choice

[Boof-head]

Originally Posted by pamela

Cause and effect should not be confused with the ability to reason or make a choice

Are you saying when we thinking humans make a choice, we shouldn't "confuse" it with cause or effect?

Somehow, I can't decide what to effect, in terms of what might have caused you to say this (??)

[pamela]

posted by Boof
Are you saying when we thinking humans make a choice, we shouldn't "confuse" it with cause or effect?

Somehow, I can't decide what to effect, in terms of what might have caused you to say this (??)

You were giving the human attribute of reasoning to the planet and atmospheric chemistry, which cannot make a decision only have a reaction from the cause

[Boof-head]

Originally Posted by pamela

You were giving the human attribute of reasoning to the planet and atmospheric chemistry, which cannot make a decision only have a reaction from the cause

I was?
Are you sure that isn't what you did instead?

A decision might in general be something attributed to a conscious observer.
However, the sun decides to 'rise' every day, because the earth is rotating on its axis - it decides to do this, or in science-speak: "the earth's rotation determines the apparent path of the sun through the sky".

You have to accept that "determination" = "decision"; if a planet can rotate and determine an apparent path for a distant object, it can decide to rotate too. This is not an abuse of language, unless "determine" is too.

Perhaps if I point out that consciousness is not generally attributed to inanimate bodies; then as you say, chemistry is an effect, with a cause (except we decide this is the caes, don't we, us conscious, thinking observers). Chemistry determined ozone depletion, not conscious observers - we just observed what the atmosphere 'did' with the CFCs we added (consciously). The chemistry didn't have a conscious choice to make, it had a determined one.

[freeztar]

Originally Posted by Boof-head

I was?

Yep.

Are you sure that isn't what you did instead?

Nope, don't think so.

A decision might in general be something attributed to a conscious observer.
However, the sun decides to 'rise' every day, because the earth is rotating on its axis - it decides to do this.

Nope, the sun has no say in the matter.

You have to accept that "determination" = "decision"; if a planet can rotate and determine an apparent path for a distant object, it can decide to rotate too. This is not an abuse of language, unless "determine" is too.

Semantics can be tricky, but regardless, nobody here has to accept such a proclamation, especially since it is one that is generally viewed as unacceptable.

Perhaps if I point out that consciousness is not generally attributed to inanimate bodies; then as you say, chemistry is an effect, with a cause (except we decide this is the caes, don't we, us conscious, thinking observers). Chemistry determined ozone depletion, not conscious observers - we just observed what the atmosphere 'did' with the CFCs we added (consciously). The chemistry didn't have a conscious choice to make, it had a determined one.

It seems you are describing cause and effect here, just as Pamela was trying to point out.

In any case, this thread is (or at least was) about uncertainty with anthropogenic global warming. For questions related to an Earth that thinks and feels, we need another thread (Philosophy Forum). In fact, this whole thread is a bit of a mess as it has become a catchall for any discussion involving climate science, AGW, etc.

I propose that this thread is closed and further discussion related to any topic in this thread is instigated with new threads. Many of us are interested in this subject, but it dilutes the content when the content of this thread is so diverse and inhomogeneous.

If any thread participants/observers object to the idea of closing this thread and breaking future posts into much more specific and relevant threads, speak now.

[Boof-head]

the sun has no say in the matter.

Why would the sun have anything to say? It can't think, you know (yes you do know this, but why do you?).
So saying "the sun has no say" is just assuming the negative of: "the sun can have a say".

nobody here has to accept such a proclamation, especially since it is one that is generally viewed as unacceptable.

Of course not; but nonetheless the sun has a determined orbit; we know it does because "we" figured this out. You don't actually have to "accept" anything. Ask yourself why we question what we think we know?
The sun doesn't question, or cogitate, it just does whatever is determined, by it's mass and energy.

For questions related to an Earth that thinks and feels, we need another thread (Philosophy Forum).

Who said the earth thinks or feels? I said the earth determines what happens to stuff like CFCs in the troposphere, and CO2. Therefore the earth is the decider, not us - we just "inadvertently" but consciously put it there.

You're confusing the meaning of "determine" as it applies to humans who think, with determination by systems that don't. That's ok, a lot of people misinterpret meaning. it happens all the time. I am not implying that the earth thinks, other than the way a chemical reaction "thinks" about determining a product from some reactants.

Obviously it isn't thinking like we do. but regardless it determines an output, it "decides" this. This is absolutely not incorrect, your semantic grasp of it is incorrect. OK?

[modest]

Originally Posted by freeztar

I propose that this thread is closed and further discussion related to any topic in this thread is instigated with new threads. Many of us are interested in this subject, but it dilutes the content when the content of this thread is so diverse and inhomogeneous.

Originally Posted by Boof-head

...we don't want one, despite the planet deciding it's going to have one anyway...

P.S. I can't be sure that the planet is all that concerned about whether we believe we're changing its mind about the onset of its next glaciation...

Originally Posted by REASON

I'm continually confounded by these notions that ours, or any other planet for that matter, is capable of making decisions.

Originally Posted by Boof-head

Who said the earth thinks or feels? I said the earth determines what happens to stuff like CFCs in the troposphere, and CO2.

<...>

You're confusing the meaning of "determine" as it applies to humans who think, with determination by systems that don't. That's ok, a lot of people misinterpret meaning.

Nobody is misinterpreting the meaning of anything. You are dissembling the fact that you described the earth anthropomorphically. It's off topic and has no consequence to the subject at hand.

~modest

[Moontanman]

I'd like to see this thread broken up into several specific topics. Possibly

"Is the Earth getting warmer?"
"Is it natural or man made?"
"Is warmer good or bad?"
"Is the change unusually fast?"
"Is the only thing bad about GW is that it's fast?"
"Will High CO2 level result in a warm Earth or an ice age?"
"Is Mars experiencing GW as well as the Earth?"
"Can we really do anything about GW?"
"Can we afford to do anything about GW?"

just a few possibilites........