Can Ethanol ever Comletely replace petroleum based fuels?

[Eclipse Now]

Ethanol is anything but.

It is highly corrosive, does not pump down existing pipes, and is so corrosive that it needs specially designed train carriages to take from where we grow the stuff to where we (the majority of the population) burn the stuff.

As for forests, check out:
Monbiot.com Worse Than Fossil Fuel

Don't forget that biodiversity is at stake here. Extinction is forever. Growing palm oil in Indonesia is leading to an absolutely reprehensible ecological catastrophe as forests retreat, Orangutans disappear and biodiversity vanishes.

The ONLY liquid fuel I'm aware of that could potentially scale up is the algae method mentioned on my page, but that is 40 thousand square miles of high-tech algae greenhouse farm to satisfy just America's oil needs. Advantage? It grows in sewerage waste and can be grown in the deserts, in urban areas closer to where we use the fuel, or on other wastelands. The disadvantage? We should have started 20 years ago and we are within 5 to 10 years of oil production starting a permanent 5% per annum decline.

That will make today's economic crisis look like a dress-rehearsal.

[ronthepon]

Could you give more data about the corrosiveness of ethanol? And about the algae method? What does it produce?

Give me a link of the content on your site?

[Eclipse Now]

First of all, I admit to not really understanding a lot of the chemical processes they describe below, but basically get the clear message that Ethanol is not really compatible with the current piping system because it "rusts and corrodes stuff".

Then there's the problem of land resource to grow it all. I can ONLY support non-farmland, marginal lands, and non-biodiversity affecting badlands.

In the near term, it is likely that most of the projected increase in shipments of ethanol to terminals will be handled by tanker truck and rail tank car as opposed to pipelines. Except for a few proprietary pipelines, the refined product pipeline operators do not ship ethanol in their systems.

Wider use of pipelines to transport ethanol is problematic for several reasons. It means addressing ethanol’s water affinity problem (ethanol is water soluble meaning it absorbs water). Because water accumulation in pipelines is a normal occurrence (in most cases water enters the system through terminal and refinery tank roofs or can be dissolved in fuels during refinery processes), introducing ethanol into a pipeline risks rendering it unusable as a transportation fuel.

The second challenge to transporting ethanol by pipeline is the need to address corrosion issues. Ethanol-related corrosion problems can result from how ethanol behaves in the pipe. There is some evidence that ethanol in high concentrations can lead to various forms of corrosion including internal stress corrosion cracking, which is very hard to detect. This damage may be accelerated at weld joints or “hard spots” where the steel metallurgy has been altered.

While it may be technically possible to address issues relating to transporting ethanol via pipeline, significant investments in new and modified facilities and operational practices would be necessary.

While oil pipeline operators search for ways to address the challenges of transporting ethanol blended products, they will continue to provide the most efficient, reliable and safest means of transporting fuel for your daily life.

In The Pipe: Increased Ethanol Use Creates Challenges

Alcohol fuel - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Methanol and ethanol contains soluble and insoluble contaminants [3]. These soluble contaminants, halide ions such as chloride ions, has a large effect on the corrosivity of alcohol fuels. Halide ions increase corrosion in two ways; they chemically attack passivating oxide films on several metals causing piting corrosion, and they increase the conductivity of the fuel. Increased electrical conductivity promotes electrical, galvanic and ordinary corrosion in the fuel system. Soluble contaminants such as aluminum hydroxide, itself a product of corrosion by halide ions, clogs the fuel system over time. To prevent corrosion the fuel system must be made of suitable materials, electrical wires must be properly insulated and the fuel level sensor must be of pulse and hold type (or similar). In addition, high quality alcohol should have a low concentration of contaminants and have a suitable corrosion inhibitor added.

Methanol and ethanol is also incompatible with some polymers. The alcohol is solved by the polymers causing swelling, and over time the oxygen breaks down the carbon-carbon bonds in the polymer causing a reduction in tensile strength. For the past few decades though, most cars have been designed to tolerate up to 10% ethanol (E10) without problem. This include both fuel system compatibility and lambda compensation of fuel delivery with fuel injection engines featuring closed loop lambda control. In some engines ethanol may degrade some compositions of plastic or rubber fuel delivery components designed for conventional petrol, and also be unable to lambda compensate the fuel properly.[citation needed]

"FlexFuel" vehicles have upgraded fuel system and engine components which are designed for long life using E85 or M85, and the ECU can adapt to any fuel blend between gasoline and E85 or M85. Typical upgrades include modifications to: fuel tanks, fuel tank electrical wiring, fuel pumps, fuel filters, fuel lines, filler tubes, fuel level sensors, fuel injectors, seals, fuel rails, fuel pressure regulators, valve seats and inlet valves. The cost of this E85 upgrade to a modern engine is inexpensive and is less than $100[citation needed]. "Total Flex" Autos destined for the Brazilian market can use E100 (100% Ethanol).

However, look at the uses of algae!
Algae - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Everything from jet fuel to car fuel to fertilizer to plastics to nutrition supplement, and we can grow it in these plastic sheets from waste water. (The sheets save the massive pest invasion and water loss issues of pond-grown algae).



Algaculture - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Valcent Products Inc,. - High Density Vertical Bioreactor - Mon Nov 3, 2008


However, again... it's too little too late. I don't know what our grandchildren will be doing for transportation energy, and they might have vast deserts processing thousands of km's of this algae in our sewerage, with vast solar arrays providing the electricity to pump all the wastewater in and the fuel back out again. I don't know... that's generations away. What I WOULD like to know is why the governments of the world are refusing to look at the peak oil question, especially when I've briefed some of our own politicians and know from other activist friends that EVERY politician in Australia has been briefed!

We ARE simply going to hit the peak of oil production in the next 5 to 10 years, and it will simply dwarf todays' economic news. See my sig. ;-)

[ronthepon]

You're a real gem, Eclipse Now, Thanks for the info.

I must admit that currently an agenda pusher, and will not rest till I compile all the problems and their solutions relating to ethanol as a dominating fuel.

I'll be more open a little later, however. (After I've either finished with ethanol's list or hit upon insurmountable obstacles. And given my presentation at my univ.)

Anyway, I note that:-

1.
algae may prove to be an excellent source of cellulose (or biomass for ethanol production)
The advantages of being grown in the water are simply too brilliant. They might reduce the stress on land quite significantly.
Unformed thoughts have begun to grow in my mind about offshore cordoned off areas where algae could be grown. (Did I let that out? I need to patent it fast!)

2.
The supply channels of ethanol will not be as simple as I assumed it would be. A method to simplify the transport needs to be devised. Say- anti corrosion coatings especially for ethanol? Need some googling around.

I cant wait to get started; damn the assignments I'm wading through!

[Eclipse Now]

Thanks. There are other views on ethanol, but I think they overlook a few issues... in my layman's perspective. Hey, I could be wrong, as I said I have an arts brain, and just sort of have a feel for what the various Executive Summaries say, not the equations and chemistry that got them there!

So for the other opinion, one classic ethanol optimist hippie dude who is quite likable in his own way, is David Blume.
Welcome to Alcohol Can Be A Gas! | Permaculture & Alcohol Can Be A Gas


Try this review of his book.

Alcohol can be a Gas ? initial impressions and comments Energy with-out Oil Weblog

Or listen to his 2 part podcasts (or watch the videos) here
Peak Moment: Alcohol Can Be a Gas, Part I | Global Public Media

and here
Peak Moment: Alcohol Can Be a Gas, Part II | Global Public Media

I have reservations. If something seems too good to be true, it usually is. However, I love the guy's "systems thinking" for creating yet another food AND fuel system that applies a permaculture system to industrial processes. We really could live in an "industrial ecosystem" where waste from one product becomes input into the next product.

So if you are busy, here's what I recommend. RSS via Google Reader to global public media and always, always, always download every single audio podcast they EVER do. That way you'll stay ahead, learning up to date stuff while walking, doing the dishes, on the bus, whatever.

Then also use iTunes to subscribe to Scientific American.

And lastly, once a week click on Energy bulletin and click their renewables / ethanol section over on the left, where they have the latest news.
Energy Bulletin

I just thought I'd better be honest and include Blume, because I am aware of this claims but think they might be a bit unrealistic and not include proper ERoEI balance checks.

Anyway, bookmark this thread and if you find any definitive stuff on it let me know! I would LOVE my peak oil fears to just go away this easily!