Is there anyone in the world today that ..

[Qfwfq]

Uhm, I'm not so sure you understood. Maybe I wrote in in a hurry and didn't even want to be more prolix, but the comparison wasn't between "Jewish traders in ancient Arabia" and the other two things. I did say that Jews and Arabs have long been in antagonism due to trade rivalry.

[charles brough]

I might add to this discussion that most Muslims are not Arabs. Probably about one third are Indonesian, Indian and Malaysian. Another third are Berbers, Egyptians and Persians. That leaves the Arabs a minority. The nation with the largest number of Muslims is Indonesia. Their women do not wear the veil there and they do no impose extra taxes on Christians. It is of note, however, that I could never have lived there (3 years) if I had admitted to being an atheist! I had to tell them I was a Christian, and I actually am. I follow most of the 10 commandments, the Christian Ethic, the Christian callender, observe its holidays, its marital system and identify with the civilization it built. I even call out to Christ when I feel frustration or hurt myself. . .

[nasgul]

Thanks for the addition. Your information is very true.
Of course, the taxes I mentioned that were imposed on Christians and Jews don't take place today anymore, but did so until a few centuries ago.

Glad to hear you enjoy your faith. I must say, although Indonesia has a majority of Sunni 'moderates', they still have fundamentalist groups residing in their country, such as the Majelis Mujahiden and the infamous Jamaah Islamiyah. Also the political party Partai Keadilan Sejahtera is considered quite anti-Western and anti-Semitic.

[CraigD]

Originally Posted by Qfwfq

[Mohammad’s] doctrine of Jihad contemplated and explicitly discussed the use of weapons, against those things that he perceived as injustices. These included speculative trade and lending money at interest, which he considered an unjust exploitation of people's needs. The Jewish traders and moneylenders in particular had always been rivals, not to say enemies, of the Arabic ones; he considered them all dishonest.

Mentions of business rivalry between Muslim and non-Muslims bring to my mind a conversation I had on the subject of usury with an Egyptian-born Muslim coworker and friend.

According to him, a fundamental and profound difference exists between the Muslim concept of investment and lending and that of other cultures, including Jewish and present-day Christian. In most modern business cultures, a loan is a contract in which a lendee agrees to repay the lender more than the amount lent. Although a prudent lender carefully considers what the lendee intends to do to be able to fulfill this contract, in general he is unconcerned how the lendee manages to do it. The lendee being barely successful enough in a venture to repay the loan, or being very successful and easily repaying it, has no impact on the amount repaid. If the lendee is unable to repay the loan, regardless of reason, he must suffer a penalty as specified by the contract and common law, such as forfeiting property put up as collateral, or even jail.

In a Muslim business culture, a lender is more of what we would call an investor than a traditional lender. If the lendee is very successful, their contract will usually call for the lender to be repaid a greater amount than if the lendee is only slightly successful – and often to be paid for as long as the lendee’s venture continues to be successful. If, however, the venture fails, the lendee is not subject to continuing dept or penalty. Lender and lendee are seen as having shared risk, and both lost as a result of the venture’s failure.

My friend has lived in the US and had little experience with business outside of them since his mid teens, so his explanations may be somewhat inaccurate and out-of-date.

Interestingly, this business practice appears to me to resemble the prohibition against profit-making lending prohibited in Europe through the 16th century by the Roman Catholic church as a commission of the sin of usury, a prohibition that had at earlier times been enforced by Jewish relegious authorities. History notes that medieval Christians circumvented the prohibition via a sort of loophole procedure known as the contractum trinius, or by borrowing from Jewish moneylenders and arguing somehow that only the Jewish participant in the business transaction was sinning.

Known in Islamic law (Sharia) as riba, lending money for interest is in principle prohibited to present day Muslims, though, according to the contractum trinius wikipedia article linked above, some believe that the riba prohibition is being circumvented by modern Islamic banking.

[nasgul]

According to the Jewish religion, usury is indeed a sin and is called ribbis in Hebrew (probable origin of the Arabic word).
However, if this is the concept of one's business (e.g. banking) , than it is permitted.

[Qfwfq]

Originally Posted by nasgul

Thanks for the addition. Your information is very true.

Yes, very true, only not pertinent to a reply to your post about battles led by Muhammed, during his lifetime and in Arabia, against other Arabs and also Jews.

Originally Posted by CraigD

In a Muslim business culture, a lender is more of what we would call an investor than a traditional lender. If the lendee is very successful, their contract will usually call for the lender to be repaid a greater amount than if the lendee is only slightly successful – and often to be paid for as long as the lendee’s venture continues to be successful. If, however, the venture fails, the lendee is not subject to continuing dept or penalty. Lender and lendee are seen as having shared risk, and both lost as a result of the venture’s failure.

This simply boils down to it not being lending at all, but instead participation in capital venture. Of course what Islam is against is not the lending but doing it for interest.

Originally Posted by nasgul

(probable origin of the Arabic word)

More probably common roots.

[charles brough]

Originally Posted by nasgul

Thanks for the addition. Your information is very true.
Of course, the taxes I mentioned that were imposed on Christians and Jews don't take place today anymore, but did so until a few centuries ago.

Glad to hear you enjoy your faith. I must say, although Indonesia has a majority of Sunni 'moderates', they still have fundamentalist groups residing in their country, such as the Majelis Mujahiden and the infamous Jamaah Islamiyah. Also the political party Partai Keadilan Sejahtera is considered quite anti-Western and anti-Semitic.

I don't have any faith, but thanks anyway!

One of the Indonesian political parties you mention above might be the one I had a dramatic experience with! I was driven to work by our driver and two other Western guests were with us including my wife. Around the corner ahead came a political election convoy demonstration. It was a stream of stake trucks packed with young men in green clothes, many without shirts. They were even packed on the roof of the trucks. The men were waving huge green flags. Also, there was a train of motorcycles each with from two to four men on it and with the big flags. The convoy was going slowly and as they rode by, they all gunned their engines to make the sound of a drum roll. It was unimaginably intimidating. I was not afraid at all because I knew I could "talk" to them if they stopped. But the other Westerners were almost in shock, including my wife. No one would talk about it later, but I noticed that the newly arrived fellow Westerner decided not to accept his job and went back to the States a few days later!

[Jester]

"Living in divine reality"

This is the positive future that mankind will naturally, in our lifetime, achieve.
There is also a negative future in which man eradicates himself.

Both are equally possible.

Of course we would like to see things work for the benefit of everyone. How do we achieve this? well ive seen some good suggestions in this thread. Become the best person YOU possibly can. Study religion, history and science. make connections. Talk about things that matter. If sometihing gets you fired up-do something about it! if something excites your imagination-Be creative!

Every day, take a break to celebrate life. Listen to music and dance. watch a movie and laugh or cry. Make love. Play sports. Enjoy life. BE HUMAN. Share all of this with at least one other person.

In this way, you will be doing your part to spread positivity and make your own contribution to human intelligence. A rise in awarenss and humanity will occure naturally and exponentially the more and more YOU do these things, because they are contagious. I'm looking forward to a paradigm shift.

If youkno wanything about the hundreth monkey-you'll know that a large part of the population will be left behind. However, all subsequent generations will benefit from the new additions to intellignece and cooperation. This is a very watered down version of a profound theory i share with many others, apparently including yourselves, but it should do for now.

[Rade]

I would suggest you read the book "Power of Myth" by the late Joesph Campbell. It is only through a new mythology where all humans realize that for selfish reasons they must unite to save the planet earth that we have any hope of uniting--a type of Selfish Earth grass roots movement in all contries and cultures.