Bronze Age collapse...

[Turtle]

Originally Posted by Pyrotex

I was under the impression that the Bronze Age Collapse (good name!) took place at about the same time as the devastating volcanic explosion in the Eastern Mediterranean, 1628 BC, called Thera:

"This seismic activity culminated in a series of enormous and catastrophic volcanic explosions on Thera (sometimes called Santorini), a small island some 100km to the north of Crete. The scale of these explosions is difficult to imagine, but they appear to have been many times greater that the enormous Krakatoa volcano explosion in 1883."

...Here is a map of what is left of the Santorini caldera.

Good points Pirot! Taking up with that I recall a recent program & my post(s) on it wherin the Naked Arcaeologist, Simcha Jacobovici, attributes the events of the biblical exodus to the eruption of Thera. >>

Originally Posted by Turtle

I watched an interesting show on one of the science channels called The Naked Archaeologist wherin the author, Simcha Jacobovici, followed a string of archaeological clues relating to the book of Exodus. He correlated all the events to the eruption of Santorini in 1800 BCE, from all the plauges to the parting of the sea. He translated the name of the sea that was parted to the Sea of Reeds and located ruins on a mountain different than the one commonly considered Sinai.

Bible's historical record

Then I seem to recall Moses & Aaron spent the next 40 years hacking their way through the men, women, and children of the people living in the ancient middle east, yes? Perhaps this precipitated the two-or-so-generation collapse Boerseun has us discussing.

[Pyrotex]

Originally Posted by Turtle

Good points Pirot! ...Then I seem to recall Moses & Aaron spent the next 40 years hacking their way through the men, women, and children of the people living in the ancient middle east, yes? Perhaps this precipitated the two-or-so-generation collapse Boerseun has us discussing.

Maybe and maybe not.

Some folks place the Exodus at a different time, maybe as early as 1800 BC. It's hard to tell because the Egyptians did not (to my knowledge) document the exodus of the Hebrews or the death of a pharoah in a sea that was temporarily parted, or a host of plagues, etc, etc, etc, etc.

Assuming the Hebrews did leave Egypt, it is generally clear that their numbers were small. I've seen modern OT analyses that indicate the Hebrews typically exaggerated their population in the OT by a factor of 3, 5, or more. I forget how they justified this, so take it with AGOS. Perhaps the analysis was based on finding the ruins of the villages and estimating pop size from that.

The total time required by the Hebrews to carve out their (rather tiny) empire was probably more than 2 generations, but fewer than 10. So, there is some chance that the Santorini episode and the Hebrew "carving" may have overlapped.

[Turtle]

Originally Posted by Pyrotex

Maybe and maybe not.

Some folks place the Exodus at a different time, maybe as early as 1800 BC.

Jacobovici, the Naked Archaeologist, is one such; I seem to recall he made quite a point of that date. He may have used geological evidence to make that the Thera eruption date as well; damn I wish I had recorded it. I'll look to see if it's one of the "on demand' shows.

Originally Posted by Pirot

It's hard to tell because the Egyptians did not (to my knowledge) document the exodus of the Hebrews or the death of a pharoah in a sea that was temporarily parted, or a host of plagues, etc, etc, etc, etc.

Ay, there's the rub. Again, I think Jacobovici shows just such evidence.

Originally Posted by PIRO

Assuming the Hebrews did leave Egypt, it is generally clear that their numbers were small. I've seen modern OT analyses that indicate the Hebrews typically exaggerated their population in the OT by a factor of 3, 5, or more. I forget how they justified this, so take it with AGOS. Perhaps the analysis was based on finding the ruins of the villages and estimating pop size from that.

I admit to some facetiousness myself in over-estimating the importance of the Hebrews in the collapse of the old middle east cultures. I take my grains of salt from Lot's wife.

[LaurieAG]

Originally Posted by eric l

Maybe you do not need a special technology to have small amounts of charcoal, you can find it in the embers of a wood fire. But in order to have it in sufficient quantities to start forging on a medium to large scale, you will have to start making charcoal on purpose, which means already a new technology.

Hello Eric,

Unless you have quite a large meteorite you only forge small amounts, say enough for one superior sword or dagger. I have seen references to this practice in several books on ancient mesopotamia and other middle eastern areas. The arabs (and even the pre Israelites) collected the pieces of rare and valuable metal when they were out herding in the desert. In ancient times (probably pre charcoal forging times) these space rocks were often carried into battle on the leading camel as a form of tribal 'symbol'.

[LaurieAG]

Originally Posted by Turtle

Then I seem to recall Moses & Aaron spent the next 40 years hacking their way through the men, women, and children of the people living in the ancient middle east, yes? Perhaps this precipitated the two-or-so-generation collapse Boerseun has us discussing.

Hello Turtle, good point,

The 40 years in the wilderness was after the battles, and all weren't killed. It was intended that 40 years would pass to allow those with blood on their hands to die. The old testament talks about the methods used for subjugation. i.e. surround your enemies city and ask them to surrender in 'peace', if they open the gates they are your slaves (probably vassals) forever, if they don't kill all.

[Freddy]

Originally Posted by HydrogenBond

The bronze age was connected to metallurgy with copper and zinc to make brass and bronze. Copper can be found in nature already as the metal. There are still huge clumps in upper Michigan. These two metals and their alloys can be smelted in a wood fire. To make iron required using coal for the higher melting temperature. Early iron weapons trials were not reliable steel but contained impurities, making the weapons less reliable in comparision to refined bronze. Once they learned how to add the right amount of C to burn off the O impurities to make C-steel, the rest is history, i.e., Iron Age. A good iron sword would bend the bronze sword, making it much less affective in battle.

Copper and tin were the metals first known as the alloy, bronze.
From Wikipedia:

"But the Bronze Age gave way to the Iron Age, perhaps because the shipping of tin around the Mediterranean (or from Great Britain) became more limited during the major population migrations around 1200 – 1100 BC, which dramatically limited supplies and raised prices."

[ErlyRisa]

is this a question about the tranistion of civilisation switching to hrder to work with metals, or just about the middleastern empires?

--because the vikings and brits were using iron pretty darn early too.

as for the demise of the empire that was the persians and syrians around the times -- they love killing each other!!, just like today I guess... sunni and shite anyone? , paki and indi?

--the closer you go to a more traversally viable region (mediteranean), the higher probabilty for dominating diverse culture (greeks, romans, Turks(trinity)) , and since these cultures had eaier access to forestreal surroundings (europe) thier mainstay was set in concrete.... the only reason the persians are still around today(pretty much as they were 500+ yrs ago) - no-one could be bothered visiting them. (colonisation) ... I wonder if we will be successfull today?

[maikeru]

Originally Posted by ErlyRisa

...a more traversally viable region (mediteranean), the higher probabilty for dominating diverse culture (greeks, romans, Turks(trinity)) , and since these cultures had eaier access to forestreal surroundings (europe) thier mainstay was set in concrete.... the only reason the persians are still around today(pretty much as they were 500+ yrs ago) - no-one could be bothered visiting them. (colonisation) ... I wonder if we will be successfull today?

No, you've gotten your history mixed up. The Turks didn't show up in Turkey until much later than the ancient Greeks and Romans: 1072 A.D. From there, they gradually took over the rest of Anatolia.

Turkish people - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The Oğuz were the main Turkic people who moved into Anatolia after 1072 CE. Small bands of Turks began their migration following the victory of the Seljuks, led by Alp Arslan, against the Byzantines at the Battle of Manzikert and this paved the way for Turkish dominance in Anatolia. This also marked the beginning of the decline of the Byzantine empire.

[charles brough]

I once wrote a book about the "Cycle of Civilization" and it was often believed back in the last century that civilizations or societies "collapsed" together in unison! There may well have been a general collapse of several more primitive societies existing in the south central part of the Europe-Asian land mass. It is likely that it was in conjunction with the change from brass to iron.

I know that barbaric Europe had masses of iron founderies turning out iron implements almost four thousand years ago.

But we have changed from a machine to an electronic society without a "collapse." Societies do not rise an fall because of such "causes." They rise and fall because the ideology that holds them together always, with age, finally becomes obsolete and the society is no longer able to deal with the changing world efficiently. So, another and better society arises unified by a yet more advanced ideological bond to eventually replace it.

charles, HOME PAGE