WWII: How Close Were We?

[HydrogenBond]

Napoleon attacked Russia and made it to Moscow. The problem was that the troops were so stoked by their victory that they burnt Moscow. This left no quarters and provisions for the French troops during the Russian winter. Their arrogance was pivotal part of their downfall.

The same was probally true of Hitler. It started to believe his own propaganda due to his being pumped up with speed-balls.

[Zythryn]

What if Japan occupied Hawaii after Pearl Harbor?

If you are interested in alternate histories (where what if's play out with otherwise historic accuracy) try some Harry Turtledove. He has written dozens of books about this type of thing.

[HydrogenBond]

Actually they sort of do. The Japanese own a lot of real estate in Hawaii.

It is interesting to speculate what would have been. For example, if Japan and Germany kept clear of instigating the US until they consolidated their empires throughout Europe and Asis. An then attempted to take the fight directly to the US by attacking it on two fronts. It would be tough for them to maintain that supply line. At the same time, America would have more than ideals to fight for; also survival and revenge. The result would have still been the same.

[Freddy]

Originally Posted by Qfwfq

Down through history, has anyone ever got away with attacking Russia?

Yes, the Mongols or Tartars, attacked, conquered, and controlled Russia for over two centuries. This was called the Mongol Yoke. Timijin or Gengis Khan was a conqueror who with his desendents carved out an empire that included; Mongolia, China, Korea, Russia, the Balkans and Arabia. Russia has been invaded a dozen times including by the US in 1918 at Archangel.

[Freddy]

Originally Posted by HydrogenBond

Napoleon attacked Russia and made it to Moscow. The problem was that the troops were so stoked by their victory that they burnt Moscow. This left no quarters and provisions for the French troops during the Russian winter. Their arrogance was pivotal part of their downfall.

Actually, the Russians themselves burnt Moscow to deprive Napoleon his victory. The Russian army had fought the French to a draw outside of Moscow at Borodino. The winter did not defeat Napoleon's Grand Army of 600,000.

100,000 were KIA and WIA
100,000 died of starvation and disease before reaching Moscow
100,000 would desert
the French out paced their supply lines
Russians used a scorched earth strategy
Napoleon's best troops and generals were in Spain fighting Wellington
communication was poor as his soldiers spoke 12 different languages
Napoleon waited too long before retreating
the winter of 1812 was mild

Starving and ragged troops were in a forced winter retreat became a rout.
Only 40,000 of his troops survived the invasion of Russia.

[Qfwfq]

Originally Posted by Freddy

Actually, the Russians themselves burnt Moscow to deprive Napoleon his victory.

Exactly. The Russians are a crafty lot.

They knew Napoleon could barely make it to Moscow and was totally reliant on quickly taking it, in order to recover, that was the one, huge, mistake of all his achievements.

Originally Posted by Freddy

Russia has been invaded a dozen times including by the US in 1918 at Archangel.

Now, I wouldn't quite count that kind of thing, I meant a complete defeat. Gengis Khan yes, that counts, I'd call it a lone example.

[Qfwfq]

Originally Posted by HydrogenBond

For example, if Japan and Germany kept clear of instigating the US until they consolidated their empires throughout Europe and Asis. An then attempted to take the fight directly to the US by attacking it on two fronts.

The Yanks weren't so dumb as not to realize the risk of Nazi-Fascism taking hold on the other continents.

Before Pearl Harbour they were supporting the Brits without direct involvement. They did however get a lot of concessions in the deal, gaining many strategic advantages from the British Empire, this was most of the reason why the global situation changed so much from before to after WWII.

[Freddy]

Originally Posted by Qfwfq

The Yanks weren't so dumb as not to realize the risk of Nazi-Fascism taking hold on the other continents.

Before Pearl Harbour they were supporting the Brits without direct involvement. They did however get a lot of concessions in the deal, gaining many strategic advantages from the British Empire, this was most of the reason why the global situation changed so much from before to after WWII.

There was an undeclared war in the Atlantic between Germany and the US long before Pearl Harbor. U-Boats were sinking US Merchant shipping and US destroyers were sinking German U-Boats. This probably would have brought the US into the war in time, but the Japanese had their own plans.

[Freddy]

Originally Posted by Qfwfq

Down through history, has anyone ever got away with attacking Russia?

All of these 12 invasions of Russia have made them very suspicious of foreigners over the centuries. Whether a particular invasion suceeded in conquest is not relevant. Russians remember the invasions of Holy Mother Russia, "The Third Rome" which has driven its foreign policy for centuries. Also, Russia's identity has been a difficult question for Russians to answer. Is Russia a Western(European) or Eastern(Asian) nation? With Russia's attempt to join the EU and its experiment with democracy it would seem it now considers itself Western. Time will tell.

[Qfwfq]

To get back to what was my initial point, and hence back on topic, I'll put it this way: Adolf was no Genghis Khan.

Certainly, Russia is a vast reality, call it Eurasian which is presumeably what Eric Arthur Blair meant by the term in '84, and I'm sure the US Gov't was seriously concerned with Nazi-Fascism but it was politically tricky. Before PH there was much debate about whether to get involved. If the Brits hadn't been in a so much more immediate danger, Roosevelt and co. would not have attained so much advantage from the whole deal. Quite justly, whether or not their judgement was correct, many US citizens were wary of getting into it.