Best President

[Buffy]

Originally Posted by jackson33

then we have an entity, government welfare, that tells us simultaneous that if we drive an old car, live in public housing have a certain number of kids, don't marry or attempt to achieve that we will take care of you. someplace in the mix i have to consider the lost dignity to accept or participate in the idea. many folks i have know, generally women would prefer to work, or do what most do but can't justify the efforts. this tells me something, maybe not dignity, has been lost in my version of the American dream.

Its a common tactic when attacking various welfare or even charitable programs to point to "Welfare Queens" and scream that these programs are either a failure, or mis-motivating or both. You've done both here. I have known many "welfare moms," none of whom have had the desire to stay there: the amount of money provided by welfare is simply not enough to live on. Moreover (and back on topic) both the Reagan *and* Clinton administrations made hundreds of changes to welfare to motivate people not to sit on their rears and do nothing. Its had little effect statistically, because "long term welfare" has *never* been a significant problem: no one wants to be on welfare and most get off of it quickly.

The bottom line though is that none of this has anything to do with dignity. Concern about one's dignity comes way below having a roof over your head or food to feed your kids. If welfare lets anyone have a stable platform upon which to get back to being self sufficient, then its a really good thing.

Originally Posted by jackson33

compassion, then may be a weakness in the sense to feel less guilty of what government can do to control so many, is overlooked for the sake of involvement or being accused of immoral or the lack of some emotion. in reality i shouldn't care.

As I mentioned in my previous post, this sort of thinking pretends that there is no cost to society of letting people just starve to death in the streets. It costs in crime, it costs in having to deal with the dead bodies, it costs in health care for indigents. The alternative is so ugly that I cannot believe that you'd advocate abolishing welfare and charity in an effort to save people's "dignity," but I guess anything is possible.

Charity ends at home too,
Buffy

[jackson33]

Buffy; trying to separate, government and benevolence of a society are hard to accomplish. government in general, does things to accomplish a purpose. in most cases to appease a group to acquire their support. the society generally has good intention or requires no payback.

yes, Reagan made some efforts to slow the system down and the congress that took office in 94 passed what was near the same bill vetoed on two previous occasions, but signed on the third try. since then many states have made genuine efforts to curb actions which they themselves instigated. the Wisconsin story the most interesting. tens of thousands moved to Wis., to receive aid with their no residence time requirement, to participate and nearly bankrupted the states system.

i don't care much for the *Welfare Moms* viewpoint, since they merely accept an offer, made by government, as i suggested. i do mention the ladies that follow the process to receive the aid, but DO NOT blame them. i probably know as many that refused to accept any aid, as you do that did so. for many reason, generally being married, they were not qualified to receive such aid. rather than play the game they kept there husband and generally went to work. about 50 or so over the years, worked in my stores or some i ran, in south Texas. most did just fine, remained independent, kept their dignity and their husbands.

no, dependency can cause loss of personal self perception. it increases from lack of pay back potential and generally leads to expectations, which leads to all kinds of generational pass-down problems. i am not talking about a person with five kids and dependent on a partner to earn a living which i assume is to both their interest.

there is no one starving in the streets of the USA. NO ONE....of the millions of social workers, cops or well intended people, this is not going to happen.

there may be a few that choose a bottle of beer over, a hot dog or some to proud to visit the nearest soup kitchen or any one of the 100's of private, religious, city or state agencies set up for this purpose. man or woman...

i am not opposed to genuine aid. i would rather it be left up to local individuals or groups, even city and states for larger issues. federal governments are not set up to handle such programs and any motivation by government is and cannot be compassion. aid by government should be if anything to those that can provide services to help people attain permanent solutions, which you know can't happen through a bureaucracy.

i am sorry, if i place dignity above so many human emotions. purpose or sense of being a part of as opposed to drain on the total is upper most in most peoples mind. in old age, you see this much more, as abilities fail and dependency increases. i don't believe in old folks homes any more than i do government social involvement, but then i realize i am in the minority...most prefer to pay their taxes and sleep well thinking government can solve the problem.