How did language originate?

[Symbology]

Originally Posted by Buffy

What good would that do the cat? Conversely, cats in particular are very sophisticated when it comes to actually psychologically manipulating their human "masters" (and if you have a cat in the house and consider yourself the master then it's simply proof that the cat is in *complete* control!)...

.. reminds me of a favorite sign I saw in my early 20s:
"I am the Man of this house!
And I have my wife's full permission to say so!"

Originally Posted by Buffy

He's not Herbert! We reach.
Buffy

Ok after some Google diligence I can only find scripts to this quote. I can't find any explanation. At the moment I am taking it as a rather Zen non sequitur, that allows us to look more objectively at our own thinking or grammar. But that seems insufficient for the popularity this phrase seems to have. Can anyone give me a link to a better understanding?

I am kwyjibo!

[HydrogenBond]

When we dream, the language is symbolism. This is an internal language of the brain, where one is thinking in terms of images and actions, which do not have to have a logical arrangement or logical associations. This is spontaneously generated by the brain but can use sensory things we consciously or subliminally picked up. Nobody has to teach you to dream. It is natural.

If someone knew no language, they would still have dreams. If this dream state happened during the day, to overlay conscious reality, one would see an altered reality. Language helps to pin down reality and separate out the daydream.

This daydreaming may have been spontaneously generated. It added more subjectivity to reality, with language being used to help filter it out. The tree if overlaid with a dream affect is now more than a tree. Language separated the tree and the god (dream) of the tree. The dream affect made you look at that tree differently, because it stood out more because of the overlay.

A modern version of this is cloud gazing. You lie on your back and look at clouds and begin to project shapes into them. We see a cloud plus the unconscious aspect called a horse. This horse aspect draws our attention to that cloud. As we look again, the cloud has shifted and the horse is gone, only the cloud remains. The horse made us look at the cloud, which is what remains to name.

[HydrogenBond]

Males are also well known for their lack of communication skills as it relates to stopping to ask for directions, and ending up 300 miles from their intended destination.

This shows the importance of language and communication. But if you read between the lines, the stereo type male tendency not to stop and ask for directions, is connected to more self reliance due to visualization. This is not as efficient as asking for directions, using language. But consider the situation where there is no-one to ask. This situation is the foundation of invention and discovery. There is nobody there to stop and ask for directions. This does not mean you will reach the destination, but does mean you are better equipped to give it a try.

Let us go back to the pre-language time. There is nobody there to stop and ask how do we do this? The wife would like to stop and ask for directions to speed up the process, but there is nobody there to ask, since it has not been invented. Regardless, there is this female need and goal. The male wasn't going to stop anyway and doesn't miss not having directions available. To explain his mental images he begins to speak in circles using body language and sounds. The female is memorizing where he has been and she assists his navigation. They find their destination, which is a word. She is better at remembering this, for her own need for fixed directions, and becomes the person others go to ask directions. The male doesn't really care, but may like to search again. The early matriarchies had the power of efficiency by giving the group efficient directions via language. But this was after the R&D stage of language.

If you look at symbols of Adam and Eve, Eve eats of the tree of knowledge because she wishes to stop and ask for directions. This way is good and that way is evil. It gives directions to life that are available culturally on any street corner. The tree of life if more like the male free style that depends of self reliance. Even if good and evil is defined on any corner, he often prefers to improvise. Even today. there are more male criminals, rebels and visionaries improvising good and evil. Or male philosophers looking for new paths beyond the standard roadside directions. If these new directions become accepted it is now part of the road side map. The care takers of the directions, trying to maximize the efficiency of mental travel for culture, slowly integrate.

[arkain101]

Just a quick response to the topic.


Monkey see. Monkey do.



Socially Neglected children (the kind forgotten about or locked up and never spoken to for their childhood have been shown to have never developed the part of the brain that deals with sentences and communication . It has been said that these children lost their 'window of opportunity' (from birth to about 9 or so years of age?) to develope that part of the brain. One child I can recall even adapted to behaving like a dog because he was raised more by dogs than by people. Seen performing barking, scratching, and other doglike behaviors.

Mabye our species copied other animals sounds in the animal kingdom in order to expand on our communication skills. I make this proposition because it is seems that we more often copy things we observe being done than we do invent our own.

A human being is a weakling in the animal kingdom, without tools we are a poor preditor. Even today we are facinated with the strength and grace of other creatures and mimic their actions. If we could roar like a lion! If we could jump like an impala! If we could sing like a bird. I think we were always facinated with nature since we ourselves were always inquisitive. If we copied enough sounds eventually we'd have a language.

[Symbology]

Originally Posted by HydrogenBond

This shows the importance of language and communication. But if you read between the lines, the stereo type male tendency not to stop and ask for directions, is connected to more self reliance due to visualization. This is not as efficient as asking for directions, using language. But consider the situation where there is no-one to ask. This situation is the foundation of invention and discovery. There is nobody there to stop and ask for directions. This does not mean you will reach the destination, but does mean you are better equipped to give it a try.

Let us go back to the pre-language time. There is nobody there to stop and ask how do we do this? The wife would like to stop and ask for directions to speed up the process, but there is nobody there to ask, since it has not been invented. Regardless, there is this female need and goal. The male wasn't going to stop anyway and doesn't miss not having directions available. To explain his mental images he begins to speak in circles using body language and sounds. The female is memorizing where he has been and she assists his navigation. They find their destination, which is a word. She is better at remembering this, for her own need for fixed directions, and becomes the person others go to ask directions. The male doesn't really care, but may like to search again. The early matriarchies had the power of efficiency by giving the group efficient directions via language. But this was after the R&D stage of language.

If you look at symbols of Adam and Eve, Eve eats of the tree of knowledge because she wishes to stop and ask for directions. This way is good and that way is evil. It gives directions to life that are available culturally on any street corner. The tree of life if more like the male free style that depends of self reliance. Even if good and evil is defined on any corner, he often prefers to improvise. Even today. there are more male criminals, rebels and visionaries improvising good and evil. Or male philosophers looking for new paths beyond the standard roadside directions. If these new directions become accepted it is now part of the road side map. The care takers of the directions, trying to maximize the efficiency of mental travel for culture, slowly integrate.

Ahhh. I guess that helps explain why we find so many pre-historic males so well preserved, out frozen in the snow - alone. It might be from not asking directions. But it is more likely because they didn't give their female counterparts enough credit and were excommunicated from the family unit.

[Symbology]

Originally Posted by HydrogenBond

When we dream, the language is symbolism. This is an internal language of the brain, where one is thinking in terms of images and actions, which do not have to have a logical arrangement or logical associations. This is spontaneously generated by the brain but can use sensory things we consciously or subliminally picked up. Nobody has to teach you to dream. It is natural.

If someone knew no language, they would still have dreams. If this dream state happened during the day, to overlay conscious reality, one would see an altered reality. Language helps to pin down reality and separate out the daydream.

This daydreaming may have been spontaneously generated. It added more subjectivity to reality, with language being used to help filter it out. The tree if overlaid with a dream affect is now more than a tree. Language separated the tree and the god (dream) of the tree. The dream affect made you look at that tree differently, because it stood out more because of the overlay.

A modern version of this is cloud gazing. You lie on your back and look at clouds and begin to project shapes into them. We see a cloud plus the unconscious aspect called a horse. This horse aspect draws our attention to that cloud. As we look again, the cloud has shifted and the horse is gone, only the cloud remains. The horse made us look at the cloud, which is what remains to name.

Good points! There certainly must be a Darwinian advantage to dreaming, because we clearly are not the only species that does it. I wonder how advanced a species has to be before it starts dreaming.

It is certainly alot of fun to watch a dog or cat chasing something in their dreams.

[HydrogenBond]

A good experiment for the origin of language would be to make up a language from scratch, where you need to use a new sound (s) for everything. We will put an apple on the table, and everyone will give it a name until we all agree. To label hundreds of things it is a creativity exercise. To agree on anything, will require discussions or voting, but these need to be done without language, or until the new language allows us to communicate at this level. That can create a odd situation. How do you agree upon new words, without any new words to express your opinion or vote?

Nouns can be easily brain stormed by bringing a physical thing to the table. Verbs like run or talk, can be demonstrated with body language or charades and then tagged to a sound. Adjectives and adverbs get a little harder. Concepts get real tough. As far as agreeing on anything, how do you do this, without language. We could use clubs or bribes if nobody want to agree. If we are half and half for two alternatives, how do we all agree? Maybe we can have a war or sporting contest, with the loser having to accept "the way". Bribery can also work with the one who brings lunch getting their word.

Once you iron that system out, without language, as the number of sounds increases, some may not remember the new sound for orange is "welpedo". If they forget the sound, they still visualize an orange in their minds eye. They may need to ask another person what is the word orange, without having an orange present or language to ask the word for the word. They can see it in their mind. But they may not be able to get the others to see what they see. It does not mean they are brain dead, they just can't make the correct sound.

To make it easier to remember we may need to draw our list. We have this huge paper with all the pictures. Now they can point and someone who remembers and is willing to help can utter the sound. As the paper gets huge, if someone stole the cheat sheet, they would become almost the godfather of language. So it must be protected, so all have access. How about we put it on a huge rock so it can't be stolen without everyone in the same boat. We may also need to make copies to everyone can have their own. But most can't draw that well to make a good copy. We need something that everyone can draw.

We may need to make an alphabet. It is more compact and easy to draw since there is only a couple of dozen simple squiggles to copy. Instead of needing an artist a four year old can do it. Now anyone can make a copy for themselves. We first need to make the squiggle list and then attach the sounds and all agree. Ideally we need to make the schema efficient and not just pretty. But we don't have enough language to express the idea of long term efficiency. We may have to settle for pretty or quick fix. This is where agreement can get tough without language since how so you transfer extrapolation before the language can say this?

[arkain101]

Originally Posted by HydrogenBond

A good experiment for the origin of language would be to make up a language from scratch, where you need to use a new sound (s) for everything. We will put an apple on the table, and everyone will give it a name until we all agree. To label hundreds of things it is a creativity exercise. To agree on anything, will require discussions or voting, but these need to be done without language, or until the new language allows us to communicate at this level. That can create a odd situation. How do you agree upon new words, without any new words to express your opinion or vote?

Thats actually a really good idea. Someone should start a topic about creating a simple but new language. I would be interested to see what the outcome is, how difficult it is. Of course this would not be done overnight, but may be a thread that lasts for years?

This is on topic to some extent. After all it would be a great way to answer the question.

[Miranda]

Originally Posted by HydrogenBond

A good experiment for the origin of language would be to make up a language from scratch, where you need to use a new sound (s) for everything.

Originally Posted by arkain101

Thats actually a really good idea. Someone should start a topic about creating a simple but new language. I would be interested to see what the outcome is, how difficult it is. Of course this would not be done overnight, but may be a thread that lasts for years?

This is on topic to some extent. After all it would be a great way to answer the question.

Derek Bickerton applies this idea to pidgin languages. Pidgins are essentially formed by speakers who don't share a common language, and thus have to create one from scratch between one another. There are also invented auxiliary languages that are like this; Esperanto is an example of an intentionally invented language and was designed for speakers who do not share a common language.
But there really isn't an answer to how lanugage originated, because that question itself kind of implies that not only can 'language' be quantified, but that it just popped up one day between multiple individuals. Don't expect a definite answer any time soon

[sman]

Originally Posted by Miranda

But there really isn't an answer to how lanugage originated, because that question itself kind of implies that not only can 'language' be quantified, but that it just popped up one day between multiple individuals. Don't expect a definite answer any time soon

I must protest here. We are a long way off from knowing the first thing about extra-terrestrial life, but that doesn't stop us from quantifying the probability. I think the origin of language is just as exciting a topic and I'd hate to shrug it off as unapproachable. It seem like we could at least triangulate an estimate.

Language is required for the cognative niche, so....30 thou years ago. Language is common to all modern humans, so.....80 thou years ago (as long as modern humans have occupied Australia). We can trim the estimate from the other end by listing the biological/neurological requirements for language and dating these. For instance, how old is the present (and conspicuous) position of the larnyx in the human line? Of course, it's not really clear whether this feature is a requirement for language but the cognative abilities for recursion and embedding of concepts certainly are. But then, these are harder to date.

Anyway, I don't think it's futile. The origin of language may seem like an airy-fairy thing to chase around, but I think its a fine topic for the forums, which are just fun and don't require research grants.