How did language originate?

[Turtle]

Originally Posted by Miranda

If such a disaster was big enough, wouldn't it destroy those who have language abilities as well? When and where did this mass population wipeout occur?

"big enough" is relative to the size of the group. what shall we use? what would a typical human group look like 100,000+ years ago? 50 individuasl? 100 individuals? how many people could a flash flood kill if they were living on a flood plain? anyway, your skepticism isn't supported by any real data and it belies the fact that 'unlikey' things happen all the time. the dino's (along with a lot of other life) are extinct because of a highly unlikely occurance. we are speaking & language using creatures, in spite of the apparent odds against that judging by all the other life forms we are aware of. shit happens, to quote a vulgar phrase.

Originally Posted by Miranda

It is also unlikely based on how language works to begin with. I also agree with what Sman said about language being more of a continuum. It sounds like the idea of catastrophic selection (as applied to language) is assuming that language is a genetic trait that came into existence through a mutation that is passed down to special individuals, and can attributed to phenotypic characteristics.

isn't the hyoid bone a mutation? isn't it necessary for our speaking? wasn't there a 'first' hyoid bone in hominids? how is this a 'continuum'?

Originally Posted by Meander

But it is a creative idea

indeed; after all, that is the real survival advantage of language, to pass along creative ideas.

[enorbet2]

Originally Posted by sman

Or necessary. If we assume a portion of the population had the beginning abilities for language....the behavior of primate groups takes care of it from there. Primate groups, to take the model of chimpanzee groups, are always growing and splitting. They split along lines of similarity. Similarity is usually in the form of some very subtle behavior marker, completely non-salient when the group is small, but when the group splits up it is picked out by the individuals of one group and made more conspicuous, and by the other group made taboo. Soon the two will go to war and one will be exterminated. I'm just going by Jane Goodall.

Also noted by the Jane Goodall Society is that splitting can and does occur through environmental changes whether apocalyptic or gradual such as the formation of the Congo River separating what would become Bonobos from Chimpanzees. Naturally larger groups of animals, covering more territory, are more prone to simpler changes such as localized drought. Extermination or the threat of it may even have lent motivation to migration and exploration. IIRC this can be seen in human migration such as occurred everywhere but particularly in Asian migration through North and ultimately South America. It seems to me I recall that many so-called Indian tribes just along the West Coast had as many as hundreds of distinct dialects. I see no reason such cannot also apply to language as whole.

Again we may know more about this as studies gather more evidence that may shed light on the language difference between Homo Sapiens and Neanderthal.

[Miranda]

Originally Posted by Turtle

anyway, your skepticism isn't supported by any real data and it belies the fact that 'unlikey' things happen all the time. the dino's (along with a lot of other life) are extinct because of a highly unlikely occurance.

Yes, because we have evidence that a disaster occured, and what it would have killed. Why would I provide evidence if I'm not the one presenting the idea? You have not yet provided anything for your claim either. I asked you for an example of a time period or a location of such an event, because I figured you came to this conclusion based on something evident, rather than a guess (not to say that's its bad if you guessed).

But isn't it more or less irrelevent? Even if early hominids had language abilities during such an event, it might not have been what necessarily helped them survive. There would have been other animals that survived the disaster without language. It would matter if such an event did wipe out the speaking population; but surviving a disaster is not what made language abilities flourish, because it would have done so regardless, as language proves useful in the environment as a whole. Saying that our ancestors might have survived a flood, hurricaine, etc. contributes little to the origins of language, because it presupposes its existence.

Originally Posted by Turtle

isn't the hyoid bone a mutation? isn't it necessary for our speaking? wasn't there a 'first' hyoid bone in hominids? how is this a 'continuum'?

The hyoid bone does not prescribe language abilities. Actually, its the positioning of the hyoid due to the dropped larynx that makes it useful to humans. But besides this, the hyoid is of little use unless it is in conjunction with a more developed brain, motor control, and various senses as I mentioned prior. Yes, technically all of our attributes began as mutations of sorts, but my point was that language itself is not an autonomous entity that we can ascribe to one mutation. The 'continuum' applies the ability that comes from the combination of other (mutated) traits.

Originally Posted by Turtle

indeed; after all, that is the real survival advantage of language, to pass along creative ideas.

And did you refer to me as 'Meander' on purpose? lol

[Turtle]

Originally Posted by Miranda

... And did you refer to me as 'Meander' on purpose? lol

acknowledged all. mind you, i'm not married to the idea, but i am always suspicious and quick to question arguments of the flavor which point to a low probability (supported or not) and then declare that it is ridiculous to even consider the thing. for creative stories of how things may have happened, i recommend the clan-of-the-cave-bear series by jean aeul.


but, i digress. i watched a good NOVA program last night on PBS, and i think i've seen it before, but it is very much on about our language and how we compare to the apes. good stuff Maynard!

>> NOVA | Ape Genius | PBS

[Miranda]

Originally Posted by Turtle

mind you, i'm not married to the idea, but i am always suspicious and quick to question arguments of the flavor which point to a low probability (supported or not) and then declare that it is ridiculous to even consider the thing.

Understood. Marrying ideas is a tricky business anyway...ends in messy divorce

[Turtle]

Originally Posted by Miranda

Understood. Marrying ideas is a tricky business anyway...ends in messy divorce

segue it takes two to tango they say, and the program i mentioned includes a number of interesting experiments with chimps & bonobos that bring to the fore evidence that a keen difference in they & we is cooperation. if you can watch that program (i think it is available online from that link*), please do and report back on any new insight it may give you on the origination of language. hey; i wonder if singing came before talking?

*program online: >> NOVA | Ape Genius | Watch the Program | PBS

[sman]

Originally Posted by enorbet2

It seems to me I recall that many so-called Indian tribes just along the West Coast had as many as hundreds of distinct dialects.

Check out New Guinae.
Ethnologue report for Papua New Guinea

You'll run the wheel down for a few moment before you notice the scroll bar is hardly moving. The list goes on and on.

Language "speciation" is a tricky subject. Some places it happens quickly, some more slowly. All the languages of the new world probably differentiated within the amout of time that Akkadian was spoken as a living language.

[enorbet2]

Turtle (and all interested)
were you referring to this?

Music and Evolution: Music and the Neanderthal's Communication | Music Instinct | PBS

Or just the nature of inflection in many forms of communication even among "lower" animals and/or pitch dependent language?

[Turtle]

Originally Posted by enorbet2

Turtle (and all interested)
were you referring to this?

Music and Evolution: Music and the Neanderthal's Communication | Music Instinct | PBS

Or just the nature of inflection in many forms of communication even among "lower" animals and/or pitch dependent language?

i'll have a read, but i didn't know of it when i mentioned singing. just some speculating on my part there.

[Turtle]

is music a language unto itself? i don't know either.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/06/25/sc...lute.html?_r=1

Originally Posted by JOHN NOBLE WILFORD

Flutes Offer Clues to Stone-Age Music
...
Archaeologists Wednesday reported the discovery last fall of a bone flute and two fragments of ivory flutes that they said represented the earliest known flowering of music-making in Stone Age culture. They said the bone flute with five finger holes, found at Hohle Fels Cave in the hills west of Ulm, was “by far the most complete of the musical instruments so far recovered from the caves” in a region where pieces of other flutes have been turning up in recent years.
...
In an article published online by the journal Nature, Nicholas J. Conard of the University of Tübingen, in Germany, and colleagues wrote, “These finds demonstrate the presence of a well-established musical tradition at the time when modern humans colonized Europe.”
...
Dr. Conard, a professor of archaeology, said in an e-mail message from Germany that “the new flutes must be very close to 40,000 calendar years old and certainly date to the initial settlement of the region.”