Simple Punctuation Question

[Qfwfq]

Originally Posted by Michaelangelica

On the question of commas in or out of the " " I tend to agree too that they should be out.

Always?

I don't agree to it being a matter of which is easier. Why is one easier than the other? I think some have the preference for visual reasons alone, which arise only with lower punctuation and because quotation marks are at the apex. In principle punctuation is meant to be just after the character but this gets stumped when lower punctuation logically follows something at the apex. When writing by pen it's much less of a concern, even in this case; there is simply less difference. Before computers, there had been typewriters for many decades, only less people were using them than are using PCs today.

Originally Posted by Michaelangelica

Does it really matter if the sense is getting across?

It's the sense that I was talking about. When I'm judging a writer's points, seeing that they can't distinguish where the puntuation belongs doesn't help in giving me a good impression of their credibility.

[Turtle]

Originally Posted by Qfwfq

It's a nice site and I agree with just about everything it says, but I strongly disagree with "Quotations Marks with Other Punctuation". I'm not quite convinced it is, as they claim, the "North American usage". I think it's just a recent fad and it seems obvious to me that punctuation goes inside or outside the quotes, according to whether it is part of what is quoted or of the sentence in which the quote appears, which is a simple matter to determine. Putting it inside the quote when it belongs outside is something I always find annoyingly moronic.

It is a tough call, and one I consistently follow inconsistently. Just as a dictionary gets revised yearly to accomodate new words and usage, punctuation useage changes. As Dave points out that he was taught to include the terminating punctuation inside the quote marks, and even though he rejects it, it seems a harsh judegment to moronicise an individual for following their instruction.
Sometimes a moron,
Turtle
PS I'm not sure how the AP Stylebook covers this usage, however many journalists are required by their employers to follow the precepts therin.
http://www.apstylebook.com/

[Pyrotex]

Originally Posted by Qfwfq

...The "macaroni and cheese" problem can often be avoided by adopting the right order of the things listed, if it's a problem at all.

Yes, but you probably won't get to specify that order unless you are allowed to edit a draft. Thinking ahead that deeply whilst writing terse verbiage is not easy. And what if you have TWO "singular pairs"? Such as, "my favorite foods are chili, pork chops, chopped liver, ham and eggs, and macaroni and cheese".

Speaking of which, years ago, I adopted computer language rules for punctuation. In all computer languages, a string between quotes must be taken exactly as written. You NEVER put punctuation inside a quoted string. So, I say "wow", and then I say "yahoo".

I do not say "wow,". How would you say that anyhow?
Neither do I say "yahoo.", for I do not know how to say a period at the end of a sentence.
Worse yet, I do not say "yahoo.," which is where this eventually leads if you take the logic far enough.

NO! I say a period is the last character in a sentence, "period". And I never punctuate in "strings", because strings are sacred.

Of course, after writing 80 page technical documents for orbital vehicle subsystems, I have to write a 40 line VBasic program in M$ Word to scan through my document and re-punctuate. What a bitch, but it's the principle of the thing, you know?

[pgrmdave]

It's the "yahoo.," problem that really gets to me. If I quote somebody's question, and I am writing a statement, then do I have double punctuation at the end of a sentance? To illustrate my point, look back at the previous sentance, where I said, "If I quote somebody's question, and I am writing a statment, then do I have double punctuation at the end of a sentance?." Does that really make more sense? Shouldn't language structure be designed in such a way as to make the meaning MORE clear, and understandable?

[Turtle]

Originally Posted by pgrmdave

It's the "yahoo.," problem that really gets to me. If I quote somebody's question, and I am writing a statement, then do I have double punctuation at the end of a sentance? To illustrate my point, look back at the previous sentance, where I said, "If I quote somebody's question, and I am writing a statment, then do I have double punctuation at the end of a sentance?." Does that really make more sense? Shouldn't language structure be designed in such a way as to make the meaning MORE clear, and understandable?

In your example sentence where I added red for emphasis, the period is incorrect and only the question mark belongs inside the quotation mark. At any rate I can find no such examples in the style books.
That is not to say double punctuation is never called for as we have recently learnt with the interrobang. Turtle reached for his pocket saying, "Is that a gun‽"

[Qfwfq]

I believe Pyro that we're talking about cases in which we can revise, otherwise nobody could fairly expect us to be perfect. My favorite foods are ham and eggs, macaroni and cheese, pork chops, chili and chopped liver. In any case, while from a terse logical standpoint it is "and" all of these things the subtle difference is clear to anyone that knows the menu.

I say "rabbit", but I also say "Yahoo!". A period is the last character in a sentence, even when quoting someone that said "The beer is in the fridge.". Both of these sentences end with a "period". Don't you do the same when writing that Mary exclamed "Holy smoke!"? Commas at the end of a quote only make sense inside it when interrupting what is being quoted, which is to be continued quite soon:

"Eventually," Tom conceded, "it might work out much the same after
all." and he handed her the box.

Originally Posted by Turtle

it seems a harsh judegment to moronicise an individual for following their instruction.

But one can always moronicize the instructors, and praise Dave for refusing to submit!

Personally, I think that since teachers have been excising less about details that "aren't too important in themselves", yet are a matter of making sense out of things, younger generations have been turning out more and more moronic. One example is the relaxation of arithmetic practice, since the widespread availability of calculators. Many people objected that it wouldn't be good to spare the mental exercise, which is true, but the worst problem with it is that fewer and fewer young people actually understand numbers. I've often had to point out mistakes to young cashiers that had mis-keyed on the cash register and were totally unaware of it despite the blithering obviously wrong result.

[Pyrotex]

Originally Posted by Qfwfq

...My favorite foods are ...chili and chopped liver. ...

You eat chili and chopped liver? Yuch!
That sounds disgusting!

[Qfwfq]

I guess you don't know the menu then!

[cwes99_03]

I think the original question stems from journalism. American journalists (and perhaps others) had a nasty little habit of dropping punctuation and even letters and whole words to save space in their column. Thus a 250 word column was pared down to a 220 words with the snips of a few letters and punctuation marks here or there.

I always use commas when listing things, emphasizing a change of thought, or for the extra pause that ones mind hops across when pondering why the writer used a comma there. Thus, you can more easily provide the proper emphasis on the proper word, or phrase, and get the jist of the thought.