Good narcotics, or bad?

[Ganoderma]

Well the deate goes a ways back I'm sure. what are your thoughts. I think many people in todays culture willa gree things like alchol and tobacco are much more dangerous than things like marijuana or mushrooms. here are a couple links that talk about the subject. i think it would be neat to have an LD50 chart to compare (thats what they use for narcotics right?)

My personal stance is legalize, as it goes against my countries constitution (canada). That said, if we are going to penalize people for smoking marijuana, for example, then why is our government selling things like alcohol (referring to BC liquor stores specifically). To me this is hypocricy, although we are pretty used to it.

what are your thoughts?

American Scientist Online - The Toxicity of Recreational Drugs

The Toxicity of Recreational Drugs
Alcohol is more lethal than many other commonly abused substances
Robert S. Gable

click for full image and caption
A worshipper smokes...

The Shuar tribes in Ecuador have for centuries used native plants to induce religious intoxication and to discipline recalcitrant children. By comparison, most North Americans know little about the mood-altering potential of the wild vegetation around them. And those who think they know something on this subject are often dangerously ignorant. Over a three-week period in 1983, for example, 22 Marines wanting to get high were hospitalized because they ate too many seeds of the jimsonweed plant (Datura stramonium), which they found growing wild near their base, Camp Pendleton in southern California.

Tobacco and alcohol 'are more dangerous than LSD' - Independent Online Edition > Health Medical

Tobacco and alcohol 'are more dangerous than LSD'
By Jeremy Laurance, Health Editor
Published: 23 March 2007

Alcohol and tobacco are more harmful than many illegal drugs including the hallucinogen LSD and the dance drug ecstasy, according to a new scale for assessing the dangers posed by recreational substances.

Drug specialists say the current system for ranking drugs - class A for the most dangerous to class C for the least dangerous, as set out in the Misuse of Drugs Act - is irrational, arbitrary and "lacking in transparency".

Scientific evidence shows that heroin and cocaine are correctly ranked as class A drugs as they do cause the most harm. But LSD and ecstasy come close to bottom of the league in terms of harm caused, yet they are also labelled as class A.

The Daily Dish: Drugs and Toxicity

[CraigD]

I agree with, and have little to add to Andrew Sullivan’s Atlantic article, or Robert Gable’s New Scientist article, which it cites. I think the provided table makes a compelling point, and that educational information like it should be encouraged, while the verbal hyperbole often distributed under the heading of “drug education” should be discouraged.

One complaint I have with the table and the analysis behind it is that it doesn’t take into account the concentration of the various drugs in their typical form. For example, a drug that requires one to consume a fair stomach full of substance to get an effective dose may be less dangerous than one in which an effective dose is had from a small pill, even if the former has a lower lethal/effective dose ratio.

I have questions about how the data for the table was obtained. For example, both the lethal and effective dose ration of N2O is, to my knowledge, not well established or known, it’s uptake is unpredictable, and its physiological mechanism not well understood. The lack of a predictable effective dose is one of the reasons for its decline in popularity as a surgical anesthetic: some people inhaling a “standard” dose N2O become very insensitive, or even unconscious, while others can effectively hyperventilate with it, yet feel almost no analgesic effect.

The credibility of this graph would be enhanced if citations to its sources were provided.


I dissagree with the claim in Jeremy Laurance’s Independent article that

... LSD and ecstasy come close to bottom of the league in terms of harm caused ...

While this is to the best of my knowledge true of LSD (which, per the table, has an lethal/effective dose of over 1000), it is not of MDMA (ecstasy), (with lethal/effective dose of 16). Although lethal doses of MDMA are rare (though death and serious injury due to behavior and environmental factors associated with its use, particularly dehydration, is less rare), they still pose a significant risk to public safety. In addition, MDMA, specifically in its common pill form, has been known to be tainted with very dangerous, typically non-psychoactive toxins.

Despite these disagreements with the details of the article, I believe legalization of MDMA and many other currently illegal drugs would reduce the risk they pose, by permitting label warnings and reducing the risk of counterfeiting or tainting.

[orbsycli]

The only thing that's scary is that some of these people drive.

Any psychonaut should KNOW NOT to drive while in nonordinary reality. You can kill someone. Kill yourself. . . And you'd barely even realize it. While all the buildings are melting, and whispering the most divine wisdom you've ever heard . . You forget about life and swerve out of control pinning a baby and her mama to a brick McDonalds.

It takes a while for people to understand that some of these drugs are entheogenic sacraments, and should only be taken in a ritualistic, and a safe environment with a shaman, or a guide.

It's true. "Ecstacy" is MDMA cut with something else. A lot of the times caffeine, sometimes methamphetamine. I've heard of cocaine and heroin also but . . What kind of dealer would want to waste that expensive product on some cheap pill?

I personally do not trust MDMA, nor Ecstacy. I've witnessed people who take that stuff and they remind me of zombies. I don't like those kind of eyes.

A psychedelic person would NEVER harm someone else. Only on accident, with a car. (I'm sure there are minor loopholes . . always is)
Nor would somebody who just smoked a big ol' spliff of cannabis indica.

A drunk is definitely dangerous. Alcohol makes the monkey confident, loose, cool. Yeah man, I can drive. . .
Also, DRUNK people are just so stupid! Poisonous liquid to numb my nervous system?? Ahhh . . Wonderful.
And no I'm not calling everyone who drinks, dumb.
The majority of Americans down their television with alcohol because it's legal, and they have no desire for anything else out of fear. Propaganda. Poppa Chongo.

Now let's see here, as for psychedelics like Mescaline, Psilocybin, and LSD . .
The american government is terrified of these substances. They spent so much money, and decades researching these chemicals. Theye experimented with interrogation, dosing people at random.
They thought they had found the key to the universe!
(See MK-ULTRA)

Wasn't until 10 years after the CIA found out about it the Amry started testing it out. They even made an LSD missle!!

Now . . Imagine that. LSD will tear you apart @ 500 micrograms
and they were trying to spray that on people???

I'm sure some people turned into vegetables, and lived in alice in wonder land for the rest of their lives.

Anyone who wants to dive deep into the myesteries of the universe, you can use your mind, and you can turn your minds sensitivity up with psychedelics. It's true. That is why they are so special, and have been a divine sacrament ever since the first monkey saw god.

Oh yeah, and tobacco.

Americans and their feeble stimulents . .
COFFEE TOBACCO RUSH RUSH GO HOME ALCOHOL ZZZ COFFEE

Everyone has their own rituals. And everyone should respect another ones rituals, unless they are physically harming you, like a serial killer and his rituals . .

Rare.

Beware, that's all.

It doesn't matter if psychedelics are illegal, becase the seekers will always find the keys.

In a society where every one drives, and most people are dumb, psychedelics should be illegal.



These are my observations from the underground.

[orbsycli]

p.s.

I find it funny that they don't even mention DMT.

Originally Posted by wikiforshikipedia

Dimethyltryptamine (DMT), also known as N,N-dimethyltryptamine, is a psychedelic tryptamine. It is not to be confused with 5-MeO-DMT and is similar in chemical structure to the neurotransmitter serotonin. DMT is created in small amounts by the human body during normal metabolism[1] by the enzyme tryptamine-N-methyltransferase.

So, like I've said in the past, I'd like to remind you all that we are in possession of an illegal substance at all times.

And not just any illegal substance! We are DMT factories! Like the colorado river toad! like the caapi vine! Like all of these other sources

traces back to one source.

[InfiniteNow]

Originally Posted by orbsycli

p.s.
...
traces back to one source.

Your last post impressed me, Orby. You were thoughtful, coherent, and expressed yourself in a manner that other consciousnesses could associate with... then you serial posted this above garbage. Come on, dude. Stick with the focus...

[orbsycli]

I flow, man. I find that quote that just popped outa me hella Zen.

"Remember, YOU are a buddha . .
Return to the source"

p.s. Please don't tell me how to write

Carry on.

[orbsycli]

You're scientific. Think of the source as the big bang. Now do you get it?

I can't believe you would call my sutra garbage! That's so rude, but I know you don't care. KEE AH!!!

Ahem, right. So please, carry on . .

[InfiniteNow]

Originally Posted by orbsycli

You're scientific. Think of the source as the big bang. Now do you get it?

Constant creation. Constant now. Source of existence. We could wax on this topic for hours...

This is the medical forum though... Remember context. Place yourself in your environoment. Don't just be selfish and place yourself in the moment.

Just a suggestion. No commands here. Hella now.

Trying, hard...

[InfiniteNow]

Originally Posted by Ganoderma

To me this is hypocricy, although we are pretty used to it.

Hypocricy? Yes. But, control of the masses? That's what is "important," right? World is changing. People are anxious. Think of all of the societies which have come and gone. As they grow, the interaction of the members of said societies grow increasingly complex. Although each individuals, when taken in aggregate, we are but Brownian motion… buffeting personalities, motivations, and desires. Alcohol helps maintain coherence. Those other Hubble like issues applied to the mind? Not so much…

I’d rather go to the grocery store than murder my neighbor because he has a garden and I’m hungry.

[orbsycli]

Originally Posted by InfiniteNow

Alcohol helps maintain coherence.

I agree and disagree.

I am glad that America has some sort of drug. I am not glad that it's alcohol and tobacco . .(and all of those mysterious prescription meds...)

There are many people who are glad, though. They smoke and drink all day.



I'm not against alcohol or tobacco. I occasionally drink and smoke tobaco out of my hookah. Mass produced cigarettes are absolutely wretched.
Upon impulse, a drink and a smoke sounds nice . .

And for the impulsive ones, it is.

Science is showing us the truth, it's gleaming before us,
and how many people listen?

The ones who don't. . their genetics are obsolete.


I know the long term affects of both substances, and I know probably all of you do too, but sometimes some people aren't compatible with anything else, and they NEED something... Just to feel different. Some people's brains are not wired psychedelics. Some aren't wired for any drugs at all.

There needs to be this balance among us.

And there also needs to be truth.