Obesity: Why are we getting fat? :epizza:

[Nitack]

Originally Posted by modest

In a double-blind drug trial there is only one variable—the medication. It is then not only appropriate, it is PERTINENT to say "antidepressants cause weight gain". Do you see how this is consistent with the idea of conservation of energy (e.g. calories in / energy out)? Can you think 2 levels deep like this?

~modest

I realize that it feels good to talk down to me, but I really am seeing deeper into this than you seem to think I am or appear to be yourself. I'm reaching towards the reason behind WHY anti-depressants cause weight gain and then reconciling that with the laws of conservation of energy. The constant in all this is the law of conservation of energy, everything else is a variable. If the LoCE is constant, and food intake as is constant, and weight gain results, then Calorie expenditure has gone down. The next step is not to say "I can't do anything about it". The next step is to realize that if your metabolism went down your body was able to accomplish everything it did with excess Calories and adjust accordingly. You may be 2 levels deep on this one, but I am at 3, you just didn't realize it

[pamela]

Interesting to note from your article Modest, I give him several aminos to regulate his neurotransmitter activity. He is calmer and his happy well being would suggest they are working.There is most likely a connection between the anticonvulsants and antidepressants as far as the weight increase goes.Antihistamines can actually trigger a seizure, so maybe it's another part of the composition of the drug.

Nitack his appetite is poor at best and I have to make sure that he eats something for fuel. His appetite is only good, when he is full of energy, running around, jumping on my head and generally driving mom nuts. It is at that point, I may want your gun aimed at me

[modest]

Originally Posted by Nitack

Saying "this medication will cause me to gain weight" cedes power in the situation to your medication. Saying "this medication will slow my metabolism" keeps the power in your hands, because the next sentence is "so I need to adjust A, B, and C."

This objection you have is entirely a mirage of your own making. When I say that our fast-food, super-size, junk food, American lifestyle causes weight gain—you imagine for some odd reason that I'm trying to shift personal responsibility for ones health onto society. That I'm trying to blame McDonalds for so-and-so's gigantic gut. But, in this, you are missing the truth of the situation.

We, as an American society are getting fat. There are sociological reasons for this. Perhaps we need to increase the amount of physical education at our schools or get the vending machines out of the schools and public buildings. Maybe we could create the kind of exercise at work custom they have in Japan. Like this, there are many sociological things that can be done.

But, it does not help when someone asks "why are we getting fat" and people want to look at scientific reasons for this "obesity epidemic" but they can't get past the trolls who only accept 'fat people are lazy and they eat too much'.

If I say "antidepressants cause weight gain", I'm not giving the medication power. I'm not shifting responsibility. This is something that you're imagining. I'm stating a fact that people need to deal with. If I know that antidepressants cause weight gain then I'll need to consciously increase my daily activities and accept that I'm going to be hungry most of the time. It's OK to inform people that antidepressants have this side effect.

Genetics are a factor in obesity. Monozygotic twins who are separated at birth and raised in separate environments will have similar weight / overweight profiles. If all 4 of a child's grandparents are obese then there is a very good chance that such a person will tend to be obese. This is not shifting the blame. It's not an excuse. It is nothing more than recognizing the pharmacological and biological factors that need to be dealt with.

If you and your spouse have both struggled with obesity your whole life then you need to start teaching your child activities and lifestyle choices at a young age that will help him/her deal with a problem that he/she most-likely will have. When the genetic aspect of obesity is understood it allows this kind of decision making.

~modest

[Nitack]

First and foremost, I strongly object to being called a troll. I am not coming here and simply saying "The fatties need to move more and eat less". I have based all my arguments on sound scientific principles and know that I contribute in a more meaningful way than a troll does. You owe me an apology sir, or it shall be pistols at dawn!

Originally Posted by modest

This objection you have is entirely a mirage of your own making. When I say that our fast-food, super-size, junk food, American lifestyle causes weight gain—you imagine for some odd reason that I'm trying to shift personal responsibility for ones health onto society. That I'm trying to blame McDonalds for so-and-so's gigantic gut. But, in this, you are missing the truth of the situation.

We, as an American society are getting fat. There are sociological reasons for this. Perhaps we need to increase the amount of physical education at our schools or get the vending machines out of the schools and public buildings. Maybe we could create the kind of exercise at work custom they have in Japan. Like this, there are many sociological things that can be done.

But, it does not help when someone asks "why are we getting fat" and people want to look at scientific reasons for this "obesity epidemic" but they can't get past the trolls who only accept 'fat people are lazy and they eat too much'.

If I say "antidepressants cause weight gain", I'm not giving the medication power. I'm not shifting responsibility. This is something that you're imagining. I'm stating a fact that people need to deal with. If I know that antidepressants cause weight gain then I'll need to consciously increase my daily activities and accept that I'm going to be hungry most of the time. It's OK to inform people that antidepressants have this side effect.

Genetics are a factor in obesity. Monozygotic twins who are separated at birth and raised in separate environments will have similar weight / overweight profiles. If all 4 of a child's grandparents are obese then there is a very good chance that such a person will tend to be obese. This is not shifting the blame. It's not an excuse. It is nothing more than recognizing the pharmacological and biological factors that need to be dealt with.

If you and your spouse have both struggled with obesity your whole life then you need to start teaching your child activities and lifestyle choices at a young age that will help him/her deal with a problem that he/she most-likely will have. When the genetic aspect of obesity is understood it allows this kind of decision making.

~modest

We seem to be arguing a similar direction but along different parallels. You say the fast food/sedentary lifestyle is causing weight gain. I say the decision to accept the fast food/sedentary lifestyle is causing weight gain. I think the distinction on the decision to live that lifestyle is important because every person does have options, every person can make the decision to live differently.

You are not quite factually correct in some of your statements and that is what I am trying to get at. Anti-depressants DO NOT CAUSE WEIGHT GAIN, but they do cause a lowering of a persons BMR. Genetics are a factor in obesity, but they are not making anyone fat. There was not a sudden mutation in the majority of the species 40 years ago that started us down the road to obesity. What we do have to thank genetics for is that some people have genes that allow their bodies to more efficiently use energy and accomplish the same feat (living through another day) while using less energy than other people. This amazing talent at one time was a benefit (when the species was feast or famine) but has grown into a liability during our new found abundance of Calories.

I'll leave you with this to ponder:
Metabolism alone doesn't explain how thin people stay thin

Metabolism alone doesn't explain how thin people stay thin
August 19, 2008 | John Schieszer

More important factors may be differences in food intake and activity, and the fact that people who gain weight may not truly realize how much they consume
MORE NUTRITION

SAN FRANCISCO | Metabolism alone may not explain why some people are fat or thin, according to a study presented at this year’s annual Endocrine Society meeting here.

It is unclear how some individuals remain thin in the current obesigenic environment that promotes significant weight gain in the majority of people. However, researchers with the University of Colorado Health Sciences Center in Denver say it is not because thin people have a faster metabolism or metabolize their food differently than obese people.

“The causes of obesity are complicated and likely cannot be solely explained on differences in rates of metabolism,” said Dr. Daniel Bessesen, an endocrinologist and professor of medicine at this institution.

More at link posted above...

[modest]

Originally Posted by pamela

Interesting to note from your article Modest, I give him several aminos to regulate his neurotransmitter activity. He is calmer and his happy well being would suggest they are working.There is most likely a connection between the anticonvulsants and antidepressants as far as the weight increase goes.Antihistamines can actually trigger a seizure, so maybe it's another part of the composition of the drug.

That could be. I'm always scared whenever I'm on more than one medication. I know the fear is unfounded, but I feel like my doctor really wouldn't know if there is some crazy interaction, or maybe she didn't check.

Have you thought about taking him to a nutritionist? My sister's best friend is a nutritionist and she is actually very-well educated. I always figured nutritionists were kind of pseudo-professionals. But, that's certainly not the case with her.

~modest

[pamela]

you bring up a good point about the schools, Modest. Years ago, recess meant running around outside and having fun. In Upstate NY, where I grew up, that meant even in the snowSledding during recess, not only was fun, but we burned calories. Now recess is pretty much nonexistant. Physical Education is only held three days a week here for middle school and only for half of the year. High School requirements for P. E., are only for the freshman year. The school system essentially has decreased the amount of physical activity that used to be the norm. The food provided for both breakfast and lunch qualifies as junk, even the teachers will not eat it. Vending machines are centrally located for those that wish that sugary laden substance. Ice cream and cookies are available as well.
By not providing healthy food and allowing this junk, we may as well be advocating that his is how we should eat. What good is it to teach children about the food pyramid and healthy eating habits, when the school system contradicts what is being taught.

[pamela]

Modest, you should be concerned and your fears are not unwarranted. Depending on the medications, even over the counter products, can cause serious implications when taken with prescriptions.
As far as a nutritionist, I have been researching for myself for many years. I have had to prepare modified diets for both of my children. My oldest was diagnosed at age 5 with intermittant explosive disorder. In order to avoid such meds as Ritalin, I carefully controlled what he consumed. All items were prepared from scratch, including bread. Most foods contain such evils as dyes and nitrates, which would trigger symptoms. The episodes subsided within weeks, and now at age 17, there is no indication that he had ever suffered from such a condition. I believe diet plays a very important role, not only in obesity, but in many of the diagnoses, that currently plague our children.

[Kayra]

While some people ARE genetically predisposed to retaining fat and others ARE genetically predisposed to stronger or consistent physical activity, these genetic factors have not really changed in the last 100 years, and likely only changed slightly in the last 10,000. Genetic factors are NOT the cause of the recent changes in large chunk (sorry for the pun) of our society. It simply can not be.

Many of the examples given i this discussion (large by nature, medication, etc.) point to individual examples to make a point, and in circles of science, the individual example is usually discarded in favor larger datasets.

Nitack, you consistently argue your point based on your personal experiences, and those experiences appear (IMHO) to be blinding you to any other perspective. Your natural predisposition to be large, and your powerful personal drive to overcome this genetic predisposition appears to have given you the perspective that all the entire society needs to do is follow your example to resolve the issue. While your solution is laudable, and even encouraged, it is pretty improbably that the majority of overweight people would be likely to try, and even if they did, unlikely to maintain that lifestyle. furthermore, it is pointed to as a sollution when the puropose of the thread is to determine the problem.

The insistence that a simple (and accurate) formula bears the answer is again IMO grossly simplifying a very complex situation. It treats the body as a simple mechanism instead of a vastly complex soup of genetically driven parts. All the formula can do is point us in a very general direction as to what is causing the problem. If it is just an increase in calories, or a reduction in physical activity, either could likely be resolved by educating the public and embarking on long term campaigns to correct the issues. This would in effect be an engineered social change, and we have done them before.

Modest, Nitack is correct that genetics is unlikely to be the direct cause of obesity (unless the American society is having a genetic revolution the rest of the world is missing). Although it may very well point to the real problem. Something in the American environment, whether it be:

• general changes to the type of food consumed,
• the amount of encouraged activity,
• video games,
• social discouragement of physical activity,
• increase in technology that reduces the need for exercise,
• trace amounts of chemicals in the food supply,
• trace contamination in the water,
• etc,

is likely playing against on one or more existing genetic traits. While it is convenient to blame these genetic hitches, the better question is why they are being activated or played upon now.

What in the American society is causing these genetic traits to be activated (or suppressed). The only way to find the answer is to understand the problem, and we are not there yet.

I believe we need a fuller understanding of the complex and myriad mechanisms that control not only weight, but appetite and desire to be active or inactive, before we can begin to answer the very valid question this thread has posed.

In the end, I would bet the answer to why is going to be tied to a combination of changing diet, manual labor reduction through automation, increased leisure time, and at least on factor in our food chain that is not readily apparent.

[modest]

Originally Posted by Nitack

First and foremost, I strongly object to being called a troll. I am not coming here and simply saying "The fatties need to move more and eat less". I have based all my arguments on sound scientific principles and know that I contribute in a more meaningful way than a troll does. You owe me an apology sir, or it shall be pistols at dawn!

Nitack,

Go back and read Interval’s post. He points out an extensive research project done in the genetics of obesity. The results were just release days ago, and he posts it in this thread making a positive contribution. After Racoon completely mischaracterizes his post, Interval says this:

Originally Posted by interval

You are right, Racoon. And I am right too. Genetic only puts people at obesity risk. Lifestyle does the rest. If one prone to obesity has a balanced diet and is engaged in physical activity, he will have a normal weight.

Which you call rubbish and bullshit, further commenting "Everyone is desperate to find an excuse for their being fat other than their own actions. Blame genetics, disease, specific foods, etc, and people feel better about themselves because they are not responsible for their own misery."

This was Interval's 11th post... If anyone needs an apology.

~modest

[modest]

Kayra,

As usual, you are spot on. I think our understanding of national trends of adiposity is very poorly understood. Any understanding (and especially any possible national solutions) would require psychology, sociology, biology, and (perhaps most of all) education. Drawing together so many disciplines and understanding something as difficult as human behavior on a national scale is a very daunting challenge.

~modest