Obesity: Why are we getting fat? :epizza:

[paigetheoracle]

Originally Posted by Nitack

Not really a valid caparison when talking about ageism and sexism. Neither being old nor your gender has a direct correlation with your likelihood of an early death, lower quality of life, and disproportionate drain on the health care system. Many people try to frame any prejudice that overweight people experience as the product of a superficial world looking to bully an easy target. Even though that is probably true, it does not change the fact that being obese or morbidly obese is a major health concern and preventable. A number of logical fallacies with that... Ad Hominem, Argument from fallacy, and a sprinkle of Red Herring for good measure. Appeal to ridicule as well...

Isn't that the point here - is it preventable? What truly causes it? What are our prejudices about it?

Morbidly obese in my book is people who have to be picked up by crane to be moved out of their house or have the walls of the house knocked down, so that their bodies can be removed for burial and those that can walk, looking like real life Michelin Men

Post hoc ergo propter hoc.

Sorry my Latin isn't that hot - are you saying I'm arguing from premises that I've provided and then claim them as proof?

Obesity is actually on the rise in the third world as well, except for a few areas such as Sub-Saharan Africa. Although I hear they cause autism! ( I am just kidding by the way)

If it doesn't occur there, why not? What is different about these areas? Is it genetic or lack of food source?

[Nitack]

Originally Posted by paigetheoracle

If it doesn't occur there, why not? What is different about these areas? Is it genetic or lack of food source?

Post hoc ergo propter hoc, Latin for "after this, therefore because (on account) of this"

The research I read a while ago indicated that the reason why it is not affecting sub-Saharan Africa and areas similar is believed to be due to the much lower amount of Calories available per-capita... I'll have to re-research to find it again.

[paigetheoracle]

Originally Posted by Nitack

Post hoc ergo propter hoc, Latin for "after this, therefore because (on account) of this"

The research I read a while ago indicated that the reason why it is not affecting sub-Saharan Africa and areas similar is believed to be due to the much lower amount of Calories available per-capita... I'll have to re-research to find it again.

No need - I'll believe you! (I quote stuff that I've read but can never find again because I didn't keep a copy or threw it out, thinking I'd never need it again or eventually I remember the quote and source because I've used it many times before but had temporarily forgotten it - at my age recall is as slow as some old beat up computer because I am some old beat up person!)

[Michaelangelica]

Originally Posted by Nitack

Post hoc ergo propter hoc, Latin for "after this, therefore because (on account) of this"

The research I read a while ago indicated that the reason why it is not affecting sub-Saharan Africa and areas similar is believed to be due to the much lower amount of Calories available per-capita... I'll have to re-research to find it again.

Metabolic syndrome in a sub-Saharan African setting: Central ...
Central obesity appears to be the key determinant of the prevalence of the MS in sub Saharan Africa. Many MS definitions may not be appropriate for African ...
cat.inist.fr/?aModele=afficheN&cpsidt=18810851

Obesity and Undernutrition and Cardiovascular Risk Factors in ...
People in sub-Saharan Africa appear not always to perceive obesity as a health risk. The local perception of obesity and physical inactivity as signs of ...
Obesity and Undernutrition and Cardiovascular Risk Factors in Rural and Urban Gambian Communities -

Metabolic syndrome in a sub-Saharan African setting: central ...
Central obesity appears to be the key determinant of the prevalence of the MS in sub Saharan Africa. Many MS definitions may not be appropriate for African ...
Metabolic syndrome in a sub-Saharan African setting: central obesity may be the key determinant

Disease and mortality in Sub-Saharan Africa - Google Books Result
by Dean T. Jamison, World Bank, Richard G ... - 2006 - Medical - 387 pages
Table 18.3 shows the prevalence of obesity from Sub- Saharan Africa reported in recent literature. South Africa has the highest prevalence of obesity in ...
EDIT: Disease And Mortality in Sub-saharan Africa p.253-254

I'd bet that even though in all likelihood 90% or more of the obese population are that way from overeating and lack of exercise, more than 90% think that it is not their own actions that caused their condition.

Show me some science to support your "bet".
It just sounds like more prejudice and unsupported generalisation.
The same sorts of stereotyping & attitudes you find in racism.

[Nitack]

Originally Posted by Michaelangelica

Show me some science to support your "bet".
It just sounds like more prejudice and unsupported generalisation.
The same sorts of stereotyping & attitudes you find in racism.

First, wonderful that you can type in a google search and paste links... did you actually read those studies? Because if you had, they pretty much support the notions that i have advocated all along, that obesity rate increases are due to lifestyle choices of individuals and not boogyman medical conditions. They do say that Obesity is on the rise in Sub-Saharan Africa (up to a whopping 4%), however the rates increases are mostly in urban women and researchers found correlations to increased calorie consumption and decreased activity pointing to the cause...

Obesity and Undernutrition and Cardiovascular Risk Factors in ...
People in sub-Saharan Africa appear not always to perceive obesity as a health risk. The local perception of obesity and physical inactivity as signs of ...
Obesity and Undernutrition and Cardiovascular Risk Factors in Rural and Urban Gambian Communities -

You seemed to completely not read this article. Did you notice the results?

Of the study population, 216 of 5373 (4.0%) were obese; however, the prevalence of obesity was much higher (32.6%) among urban women 35 years or older

That seems to correspond with what i originally said, that obesity has a much lower prevalence in Sub-Saharan Africa

Next up

Metabolic syndrome in a sub-Saharan African setting: central ...
Central obesity appears to be the key determinant of the prevalence of the MS in sub Saharan Africa. Many MS definitions may not be appropriate for African ...
Metabolic syndrome in a sub-Saharan African setting: central obesity may be the key determinant

Nothing in here disputes what I said about Sub-Saharan Africa either. Once again, did you read this at all? Beyond that, the rates of metabolic syndrom were also ridiculously lower than in first-world countries, which if it does not contribute evidence in support of what i said, it certainly does not contradict it.

No subject in the rural area in either gender (NCEP-ATP III definition) or men (IDF definition) had the MS while its prevalence in the urban area was under 2.0 % (Table 2).

Oh, this one is good

Disease and mortality in Sub-Saharan Africa - Google Books Result
by Dean T. Jamison, World Bank, Richard G ... - 2006 - Medical - 387 pages
Table 18.3 shows the prevalence of obesity from Sub- Saharan Africa reported in recent literature. South Africa has the highest prevalence of obesity in ...
books.google.com.au/books?isbn=0821363972...

One again... did you actually read? I have continually been shouted down when I state that I feel that increased calorie consumption combined with decreased exercise lays at the heart of the issue. How about we look at what is contained in this dandy book you googled but did not read...

Urbanization, associated with changing dietary patters and less physical activity and a rise in socioeconomic status is occurring across Sub-Saharan Africa countries. All these factors lead to an increase in the prevalence of overweight and obese people in the region. This phenomena is illustrated in a study by Kruger and colleagues (2002) of the nutrition and physical activity patterns of a large sample of people from the North West Province of South Africa exposed to all levels of urbanization. The researchers found a significant association between household income and measures of obesity. They also saw a positive correlation between total energy intake, fat intake, and BMI. The physical activity index correlated negatively with BMI and waste circumference.

Emphasis mine.

So, obesity is increasing in third world countires including Sub-Saharan Africa and the literature you so kindly linked supports the notion that change in diet and exercise paters lay at the heart of the issue.

As for my "bet"/assumption, I can't find any studies that indicate self-perception of the cause of obesity in obese individuals. Which does not meant that my assumption is wrong. You are making a mistake in logic, Argument from silence - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia. You assume that because you haven't seen any evidence in support that my assumption is wrong, even though you have not provided any evidence to contradict what i said. Also, you are rather inflamatory by throwing around words like "prejudice", "unsupported gernalisation" and "The same sorts of stereotyping & attitudes you find in racism." All of those are loaded terms and are also forms of logical fallacy. You can't attack what I said, so you attack me. To name a few:
Ad hominem - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Appeal to consequences - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Judgmental language - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Appeal to emotion - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Ignoratio elenchi - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Michaelangelica, I normally appreciate the diligence with which you ferret all of the new scientific information about obesity. However, I am really getting the impression that there is an agenda behind that diligence. Rather than seeking cause it really seems like you are more interested in finding justification for obesity in order to paint anyone who feels that obesity is a self-caused and preventable condition as a "anti-fatty bigot". To respond to that sentiment, I happen to be a fatty weighing in at 230 lbs, down from 250. I am not bigoted towards overweight people, I simply feel that the vast majority of people who are obese got that way through their own poor choices, rather than the notion of a biological or environmental factor that has suddenly caused the rate of obesity to scyrockete.

[Michaelangelica]

As for my "bet"/assumption, I can't find any studies that indicate self-perception of the cause of obesity in obese individuals. Which does not meant that my assumption is wrong. You are making a mistake in logic,

No, it does not prove it is right either.

url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_silence]Argument from silence - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/url]. You assume that because you haven't seen any evidence in support that my assumption is wrong, even though you have not provided any evidence to contradict what i said. Also, you are rather inflamatory by throwing around words like "prejudice", "unsupported gernalisation" and "The same sorts of stereotyping & attitudes you find in racism." All of those are loaded terms and are also forms of logical fallacy. You can't attack what I said, so you attack me. To name a few:
Ad hominem - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

They were ment to be laoded. I am cranky. They are not "logical falicy" just a comparison of the dynamics of both trypes of prejudice.
I't's your 'bet' you provide the evidence for it.
why can't I attack you? I am attcking what you said because it is an assumption that has no basis in fact.

Yes it was lazy of me to google refences at you but there are so many I have already posted in this thread that show that obesity is a world wide phenomenon.
I am getting tired of the evidence I am presenting being dismissed without proper argument or discussion of the science just ill informed assumoptions and prejudice.

I am not bigoted towards overweight people, I simply feel that the vast majority of people who are obese got that way through their own poor choices, rather than the notion of a biological or environmental factor that has suddenly caused the rate of obesity to scyrockete.

Really? your posts don't reveal that.
"feeling" is not proof.

Off my "anti-agressive to idocy pills" this month which may explain part of my "priclyness"

More from Google
Agriculture Is One of the Most Polluting and Dangerous Industries
AlterNet - San Francisco,CA,USA
While we don't know how much was used, we do know that nearly 30 million people in the US are drinking water contaminated with Atrazine, Simazine
Managing Waste in Shanty Towns « Environmental Public Health Today
By ij2r1
A new study with rats shows that long-term exposure to the common agricultural pesticide atrazine causes weight gain in animals fed normal diets and obesity in those fed high fat diets. Chromium: another threat to whale health? ...
Environmental Public Health Today - Environmental Public Health Today

Higher Rates Of Obesity Among The Homeless « dietpillsformen.net ...
In rich nations, first world countries, obesity rates are on the rise. This we might expect due to excess, even though we also spend more on drugs and otherwise to counteract obesity. In poor countries, the food is often of poor quality ...
dietpillsformen.net editor's blog - dietpillsformen.net editor’s blog

Do You Believe in Fairies, Unicorns, or the BMI?

30.0 and above = Obese

(Tom Cruise, with a height of 5'7" and weight of 201 lbs, has a body mass index of 31.5, while the younger Schwarzenegger, at just over six feet tall and about 235 pounds, had a BMI over 31.

Do You Believe in Fairies, Unicorns, or the BMI?


video on neglected causes of obesity
Healthwatch: Unusual Causes Of Obesity - WBZ Boston - Recherche vidéo sur Truveo

typical "shooting from the hip without propper investigation

And when our politicians discovered what a fat little country we had become they became obsessed about obesity. Soon, every MSP and councillor in the land was trying to rid us of this national embarrassment. Fizzy drinks would be banned from schools and hamburgers would be replaced by couscous and guacamole suppers. Indeed, the selling of lemonade to impressionable youngsters almost became a capital offence. There was a proposal to rewrite Enid Blyton's Famous Five books to delete all references to the vile substance.

Kevin McKenna: What will they ban next? Don't go there | Comment is free | The Observer

The modern era has brought a unique host of problems. The number of American children with chronic illnesses has roughly quadrupled in the past 50 years, including an almost fourfold increase in childhood obesity in the past three decades and twice the asthma rates since the 1980s.
. . . the number of ailments involving malfunctions of the immune system has gone up as well.

Multiple sclerosis, a disease where the fatty insulation around the nervous system comes under attack, appears to be on the rise, and type I diabetes, "a childhood form of diabetes almost unheard of at the turn of the 20th century, is up from one in 5,000 or 10,000 to one in 250 in some regions," said Joel Weinstock, chief of gastroenterology at Tufts University Medical Center in Massachusetts.
But the immune system needs to be controlled, needs to not act up when exposed to things that aren't truly injuring you

like the millions of "new" chemicals in the environment?
Why Are Humans Always So Sick? | LiveScience

Thyroid Cancer Increasing, Scientists Don't Know Why
But researchers say they really don’t know what is causing the increase.”

Scientists are pointing to factors such as heredity, chemical pollutants, diet, obesity, and increased radiation exposure via CT scans.

Newswise Medical News | Thyroid Cancer Increasing, Scientists Don't Know Why
But with obesity we all assume we all know why. Its simple just read some of the energyi-energy out posts.

[pamela]

Originally Posted by nitack

I am not bigoted towards overweight people, I simply feel that the vast majority of people who are obese got that way through their own poor choices, rather than the notion of a biological or environmental factor that has suddenly caused the rate of obesity to scyrockete.

Consider your statement with the term poor as reflected from a financial position. Ever been to a food bank and see what is given out? 75 percent of food given is bread, the other 25 is canned crap and pork patties. Totally not conducive to a svelt figure. When you are poor and hungry, you will eat what is available. If this is all that is provided to feed your kids, guess what, that is what will be eaten.
Go shopping with your 0 income and come home with cheapo crappo frozen pizzas, chef boyardee for meat, vegetables and fruit? are you kidding me? who can afford that.. Nitack, look at the economy, these are poor times and many people cannot afford to feed themselves or their kids the expensive healthy food they deserve. They gotta eat this crap. Bread is death.. causes weight gain and makes you so sleepy you cant move to exercise. So many people do not have any choice, much less a poor choice.There are several factors contributing to obesity in this thread, and here is just one more to add to the list

[Nitack]

Originally Posted by pamela

Consider your statement with the term poor as reflected from a financial position. Ever been to a food bank and see what is given out? 75 percent of food given is bread, the other 25 is canned crap and pork patties. Totally not conducive to a svelt figure. When you are poor and hungry, you will eat what is available. If this is all that is provided to feed your kids, guess what, that is what will be eaten.
Go shopping with your 0 income and come home with cheapo crappo frozen pizzas, chef boyardee for meat, vegetables and fruit? are you kidding me? who can afford that.. Nitack, look at the economy, these are poor times and many people cannot afford to feed themselves or their kids the expensive healthy food they deserve. They gotta eat this crap. Bread is death.. causes weight gain and makes you so sleepy you cant move to exercise. So many people do not have any choice, much less a poor choice.There are several factors contributing to obesity in this thread, and here is just one more to add to the list

I understand the correlation between first world poverty and obesity. I never contested that or even addressed it, so not sure why you are addressing your comment to me.

Originally Posted by Michaelangelica

No, it does not prove it is right either.

It may not be proven right, but you dismissed my hypothesis out of hand with out a shred of evidence to base your dismissal on. Is that scientific???

Argue in circles all you want, you have an axe to grind and are attacking me for not sharing your view point.

Originally Posted by Michaelangelica

They were ment to be laoded. I am cranky. They are not "logical falicy" just a comparison of the dynamics of both trypes of prejudice.
I't's your 'bet' you provide the evidence for it.
why can't I attack you? I am attcking what you said because it is an assumption that has no basis in fact.

They are logical fallacies and I pointed out exactly which ones. I'm glad your passionate in your beliefs and that you want to show the world that it is not the fault of obese people why they are obese. We need passionate people in this world, but that doesn't excuse your hostility and bias, both of which are poison pills to an academic discussion.

Originally Posted by Michaelangelica

Yes it was lazy of me to google refences at you but there are so many I have already posted in this thread that show that obesity is a world wide phenomenon.
I am getting tired of the evidence I am presenting being dismissed without proper argument or discussion of the science just ill informed assumoptions and prejudice.

No evidence is being dismissed. It is just not being given the same weight and interpretation that you have given it. You think you are presenting conclusive proof that obesity is not the result of the actions of the individual. However, all you are presenting is evidence that there are mitigating factors that influence how a persons body handles either the Calories being taken in or the Calories being used. It is an important distinction because the evidence that you are presenting does not in any way discount my belief or the theories that I have put forth based on the laws of physics.

It appears to me that you are unhappy that your evidence is not the silver bullet that you had hoped. You have an axe to grind, you are looking for a specific outcome rather than looking for the truth.

Originally Posted by Michaelangelica

Really? your posts don't reveal that.
"feeling" is not proof.

I never said that feeling was proof, but you never proved that my feeling was wrong.

Another thing, my posts have never indicated a prejudice against overweight people. You read into it what you wanted to see. My posts have consistently indicated a belief based on my interpretation of the evidence that obesity is ultimately the result of the choices that a person makes and that we all have the ability to make the choices that would avoid or fix obesity.

Are you going to gloss over that? Are you going to ignore what I actually said in favor of the vilification you want to happen? Your arguments take the same shape as creationism trying to masquerade as science. You use the right words, structure it in a similar way, but ignore any argument or evidence that does not agree with you. You traffic in loose logic and flawed arguments, misrepresentation and slander. But you feel better because you get to lash out at the guy who doesn't agree with your pet theory.

[pamela]

Nitack, i addressed you because of your statement. I am sure you are aware of our economical situation,but i wanted you to see that often times,it is not about a poor choice; there is no choice.

[mynah]

In the part of Africa where I live many poor people are overweight. These people live mostly on a local version of maize porridge. Recently nutritionists bemoaned the fact that most South Africans don't eat the recommended five portions of fresh fruit and vegetables per day - but presumably they don't have to budget as carefully as the majority of the population, otherwise they may have noticed that the prices of fresh produce have escalated dramatically in the past few years. With many people, eating a less than optimum diet is not a personal choice.