[HydrogenBond]

I would like to discuss one aspect of natural instinct; child birth. Child birth is something even an animal with a walnut sized brain can do very successfully. But when it come to humans, social education appears to cause this instinct to atrophy in favor of a social rendition.

In other words, if one goes to a third or fourth world culture, where education is slight, birth is still a very natural process. In the first world cultures, women are trading in their natural instincts for the latest birthing fads. They take classed to teach them how to breath properly, etc. In fact, only a small percentage of modern cultural women trust their instincts enough to avoid the latest birthing fads. It is like culture is trying hard to atrophy natural instincts rather than helping to define them.

[hallenrm]

In this context I remember an old saying, There is nothong like a free lunch!, One has to trade off something in return. So the loss of this instinct is the price you pay for your prosperity, wealth and power(?).

[CraigD]

Originally Posted by HydrogenBond

In other words, if one goes to a third or fourth world culture, where education is slight, birth is still a very natural process. In the first world cultures, women are trading in their natural instincts for the latest birthing fads.

One must be careful to avoid an unsupported conclusion that a culture where formal (eg: reading, writing, and arithmetic) is slight, informal education about such subjects as farming, sexuality, and childbirth must also be slight, or that women in these cultures are more guided by “instinctive” behavior than learned.

From the study of primates, particularly great apes (chimpanzees, gorillas, orangutans, etc.) we know that a female animal with anatomy and social behavior similar to that of humans, unless allowed to learn about it by witnessing childbirth and infant care in members of her community, usually is very bad at it. These poor animals may be frightened by pregnancy and labor, behaving irrationally as a result, often reject their newborn infants, and may develop long-term “psychiatric” disorders. Zookeepers have learned that, to assure successful reproduction of the most human-like, and many other species, they must be allowed to live in a natural community setting that permits “education” about the reproductive process to occur.

Although ethical and practical issues limit the availability of similar studies of humans, isolated accounts by women raised in social isolation, even with the benefit of substantial formal education, reveal similar patterns of reproductive dysfunction. For example, in the most economically advanced countries, a small but appalling number of mothers in situations of desperate social stress and isolation leave their newborn offspring to die in isolated locations, such as trash dumpsters and roadside woods. Others develop aberrant behavior commonly labeled “postpartum depression”, and may withdraw from participation in infant care, or even harm or kill their children. Nearly identical behaviors have been observed in socially stressed primates.

In short, it appears that human beings and their close relative species almost completely lacking a childbirth “instinct”, and must learn how. It does not appear that such instincts have “atrophied” due to culture, but rather that the way reproductive skill are learned in some cultures is less obvious to an outsider than it is in others – or even to the men of that culture – than it is in others.

The informal education available to many women in third world cultures (“women’s circles”, etc.) are often unavailable to women in first world cultures. “Birthing classes”, such as Lamaze, appear to offer replacement sources of this important education. Although such classes may appear silly and faddish when compared to their more informal third world counterparts, the learning they facilitate are certainly not.

Ridiculing or discouraging reproductive education, formal or informal, in the belief that, without this education, women would instinctively know how to deliver and care for their children, is IMHO contradicted by scientific evidence, and has the potential to put women and infants at increased risk or injury and death.

[HydrogenBond]

I was not trying to single out women or child birth but was using this as an example of natural instinct versus socially modified instinct. In other forum topics I have proposed the idea of natural instincts. This is not new but most people seem to think instinct is relative and natural instinct is not real. This may be a sign of the times with culture modifying natural instinct to where most people just assume it no longer exists.

In my experience, something like instinct, which has slowly evolved over millions of years can not just be shut off, in one or two generations of social experts. This should create a split in the human psyche. The result in modern times is a whole new range of disorders, that have been created by culture, in its attempt to change natural instinct into something artificial. Everyone seems to grasp natural food versus unnnatural food but natural versus unnatural instinct goes right over everyone's head, with every attempt made to prevent pointing out what is natural, as thought unnatural is a political position or religion. I think the bottom line is unnatural instinct creates many more jobs and so-called experts and give free reign to unnatural behavior and is therefore considered of higher value. An irrational state of mind would draw such a conclusion; irrational due to the repression of natural instinct.

[TheBigDog]

What I see from my limited exposure to the birthing process is that people are so scared to death of making any type of mistake that any little hiccup in the process is viewed as an abnormality and medicine must take over for nature.

My last son was born by emergency c section. His head was lodged against Shannon's pelvic bone, and he just was not coming out that way despit about 30 minutes of game effort. In talking to the Doctor who delivered the baby about 10-15% of her deliveries were c sections for one reason or another. And this may well be a typical number.

One of my sisters has had 3 children. All of them at home delivered by a midwife. The midwife has delivered hundreds of children, and has had just a couple isolated cases where the baby needed to be delivered by c section.

So what is the difference? Why is it that there is a different success rate between the two? Is it because the midwife screens her clients eliminating herself from dealing with "problem" pregnancies? Or is she just more skilled at guiding a woman through the birthing process, partly because she does not have the luxury of falling back on a c section as a fail-safe?

I think it is both. And I think there is one more thing that is telling in the nature of childbirth when comparing different parts of the world. It is VERY rare for a woman to die in child birth in the more medically advanced countries anymore. This used to be a far more common event than it is today. Medical science has found ways of monitoring the process, and making it safer for mom and baby. But the flip side is that traits in woman that were conducive to poor deliver, that used to cause them to die in the process are no longer an issue. So as our medicine improves, we as a species become more reliant upon it. It is an area where humans are activly evolving, and may be one of the reasons that you see a difference between ease of birth in countries with differing medical advances.

Bill

[Buffy]

Originally Posted by HydrogenBond

In other forum topics I have proposed the idea of natural instincts.... most people seem to think instinct is relative and natural instinct is not real. This may be a sign of the times with culture modifying natural instinct to where most people just assume it no longer exists.

Unfortunately you've picked another example that does a pretty good job of disproving your theories.

The notion that somehow childbirth in the "third or fourth world" is "instinctual" is utter hogwash. Its not like a woman in the throes of birth is left alone in her mud hut and just "knows" how to breathe and bear down is disproven by simply visiting the third world (not that you'd ever do that, but you could read some books about it!). The activities of professional midwives in the first world practicing natural childbirth (something I know you would look upon dismissively as an example of "unnatural"), are the same in form to that in the third world, they just have access to all the backups and procedures that in the third world lead to the death or disability of the child, the mother or both. It DOES take a community to have a child.

I can tell you all about the instincts, and I can assure you that that poor woman in the mud hut would go for an epidural if she could get it. But at least she has her mom and her sister and the old woman of the village who knows all the tricks.

You're a smart guy Hydro, but you really need to do some research before you say things that lower the esteem we would all otherwise have for you.

Knowledge is power,
Buffy

[InfiniteNow]

Originally Posted by TheBigDog

The midwife has delivered hundreds of children...

Wow... she must be getting tired. I mean, seriously, her birthing canal must be shot after passing so many kids through it...

[TheBigDog]

Originally Posted by InfiniteNow

Wow... she must be getting tired. I mean, seriously, her birthing canal must be shot after passing so many kids through it...

She is like an old muzzle loading cannon with a nine month fuse.

Bill

[HydrogenBond]

Child birth is an example where human and science intervention allows us to supersede natural instinct. This is progressive instinct. But this is not the case with all our instincts. Humans can also regress instincts to below natural. For example, marketing can make people eat lots of junkfood leading to regressive affects on the health instead of progressive affects.

[CraigD]

Originally Posted by HydrogenBond

Child birth is an example where human and science intervention allows us to supersede natural instinct.

Can you provide any scientifically supportable evidence that a human or a closely related primate female who has not be taught how knows how to successfully give birth and preserve the newborn’s life? Current best evidence indicates that, without some sort of training, women are not able to do this, and will react to pregnancy, labor, and birth as they would an illness, abandoning their infant after birth.