Bullying. Any ideas on how to stop it?

[enorbet2]

I find it fascinating how this thread has changed and become more serious once it advanced out of the realm of school, which most of us here have left behind never to formally return, and into everyday adult life. It still seems to me that the best we can do starts early but some of bullying is just so deeply encoded, and the simple but usually sad truth is that violence of any kind simply works. There is a fundamental efficiency of it in all Nature, and in Nature nothing is all good or all bad, there are just consequences for programming and choices.

Many years ago my cat had a litter of kittens and shortly after they were weaned one day I filled a saucer of milk and some soft canned cat food and one of the kittens leaped onto the saucer literally spread-eagle covering as much of the saucer as possible, growling incredibly fiercely I though for such a wee babe and frankly although it disgusted me that this adorable little kitten was also so incredibly self-absorbed to not only hog it's food but prevent it's brothers and sisters from eating as well, my mind also was sent off in 50 directions considering "survival of the fittest", whether in the wild such behaviour might actually result in the death of some siblings and the effect of that on the brood fending off predators and successfully hunting with the pack diminished in numbers, but most of all it reminded me that this was not learned behaviour. It to at least some extent is built in, almost certainly in us as well.

I am utterly ashamed and similarly disgusted to discover that in my own county's highest offices there were (are?) men and women elected to office that worked very hard to sidestep our Constitution (in effect bullying all citizens) just so they could justify torture even while knowing that it was rarely even moderately effective. I suppose most of the motivation for this was simple revenge, but that is no excuse in adults, especially adults in powerful office.

It is said that Hitler felt free to pursue what would become the Holocaust because of the success of the Turkish in murdering nearly one million Armenians . He apparently commented when asked how he thought he could possibly get away with it, "Who remembers the Armenians?". It is remarkable that to this day numerous modern governments refuse to acknowledge this "seed of evil" even happened at all, let alone seek any kind of justice.

I'm not trying to turn this thread into a political or even moral one. I'm just trying to explore how deeply and how current such bullying is at all levels of organizations right down to the individual.

One thing on a personal level: I have never picked a fight but I have been in more than a couple. Perhaps because I was and am "bookish" bullies disregarded my athletic build and thought I was easy prey. I was not. Fortunately my Dad had taught me defensive fighting and one of his employees, an ex-boxer, taught me how to flip the odds. I'm of average height and weight, always have been, but I have strong legs and considerable upper body strength from very broad shoulders. I never once lost a one-on-one despite not having the aggressive upper hand. However because I didn't enjoy fighting and would still have rather avoided it, I soon learned how much was attitude.

Having once witnessed a bully confronting a boy who was clearly scared despite being the bigger of the two, who had his right arm around a stack of books and his left hand in his pocket, get sucker punched where it was impossible for him to defend himself and most of the crowd laughed at the victim and respected this lopsided, no mercy bully, I had learned an important lesson. The bully was offended that he wasn't taken seriously as a threat, that his confrontational words would never escalate into violence, that the victim was safe because, after all one would get called to the principal's office.

Just as in the wild animal world physical contests within a species are primarily bluff and bravado, where death is rare, I learned that when confronted with a bully it was safer to assume that he was willing to go to blows but did have some threshold of consequence that he was not prepared to accept as well as the fact that he could save face if he could say the victim was crazy. So when confronted beyond just a shoulder bump, when threats were voiced to me, I simply threw down my books as carelessly as possible, raised my fists, and said "No problem. I'm ready to go to the office, to jail, to the hospital, or even to the cemetery. You?" I never fought again.

I really don't like that I felt pressed into behaving that way but it worked and seemed better than any alternative I could then imagine... a lesser of evils.

I much prefer and am heartily Impressed and influenced by Mahatma Gandhi and his non-violent successes both individually and in thwarting the entire British Empire and that gives me great hope. At the same time I realize that for every Gandhi there is Abraham, Martin, John, and Bobby and millions more nameless individuals who have been eliminated from the mix. This is a very serious thread with no simple answers.
All we, who love Peace, can really do is follow such great example as Gandhi and "Be the change we want to see in the World", educate our children as best we can, and hope for evolution.

[Michaelangelica]

Interesting and thoughtful essay thanks.
Is this a fair summary?
Your assumptions

• "violence of any kind simply works."
• violence is built in -"not learned behaviour. It to at least some extent is built in, almost certainly in us as well."
• "bullying is at all levels of organizations right down to the individual."

Your answers

• Overreaction works "Just as in the wild animal world physical contests within a species are primarily bluff and bravado, where death is rare,"
• Be prepared anyway "Fortunately my Dad had taught me defensive fighting"
• Non violence works too "Mahatma Gandhi and his non-violent successes both individually and in thwarting the entire British Empire and that gives me great hope"
• Look to yourself first "Be the change we want to see in the World", (Currently my email signature quote!)

Let me have a think.
( I have raised thousands of kittens and managed to teach them all to share and be loving to all. I had a three - four year waiting list for them.)

[enorbet2]

Sorry for this little top post but I have yet to learn how to handle lists with the aplomb that you do Michaelangelica so please bear with me. In the interest of time I will fumble around as best I can, even if it is crude.

Originally Posted by Michaelangelica

Interesting and thoughtful essay thanks.
Is this a fair summary?
Your assumptions

• "violence of any kind simply works."

• Maybe I didn't qualify that well in that, yes it does work, but possibly like my dealing with lists, is crude since it can also backfire a la endless feuds, often that go on so long the original affront has been lost. Major bullies see that as merely failing to eliminate ALL enemies/threats, part of why such a "solution" is often primitive and blunt, subject to unintended side-effects and collateral damage. An example might be how the Red Brigade came to an end over the assassination of exactly the wrong government official, not from mere reprisal, but the turnabout of public sympathies.
  
  

  Originally Posted by Michaelangelica

  violence is built in -"not learned behaviour. It to at least some extent is built in, almost certainly in us as well."

  This is oversimplification on my part not qualified within that post but hopefully in the context of my other one here on this subject, is qualified by my assertion that learning is still involved, behaviour modification still works to a degree since our base urges can be reinforced and amplified or thwarted and diminished and such is part and parcel of the nature of civilization.
  
  
  

  Originally Posted by Michaelangelica

  "bullying is at all levels of organizations right down to the individual."

Originally Posted by Michaelangelica

Your answers

• Overreaction works "Just as in the wild animal world physical contests within a species are primarily bluff and bravado, where death is rare,"
• Be prepared anyway "Fortunately my Dad had taught me defensive fighting"
• Non violence works too "Mahatma Gandhi and his non-violent successes both individually and in thwarting the entire British Empire and that gives me great hope"
• Look to yourself first "Be the change we want to see in the World", (Currently my email signature quote!)

• Since I'd rather be embarassed for something I actually did rather than some misunderstanding let me assure you that was an awful oversight on my part and not some attempt to curry favor. Obviously though I am glad to see such a concept proliferate. Imagine the world in which everyone wished to have that as their sig. Wow! I'm not imagining Utopia here since it seems to me that conflict is an essential ingredient to Energy. It is how that conflict is balanced and/or resolved that matters most, IMHO.
  
  

Originally Posted by Michaelangelica

Let me have a think.
( I have raised thousands of kittens and managed to teach them all to share and be loving to all. I had a three - four year waiting list for them.)

I have not raised thousands but I have lived with many and in a wide variety of environments, with as many as eight at one time under one roof. I am neither a cat person nor a dog person. I just like animals and they like me, even some vicious to others. FWIW that fierce kitty was effectively behaviour modded in a short time and turned out very well. Cats aren't necessarily aloof, they just have a sense of dignity

Thanks for the stimulating thread

[pamela]

hmmmnn ....being bullied in adulthood.

Reminds me of my last position. I went to work for a company after being sought out and baited for the big bucks and growth potential.My boss, and i choose not to call him my superior for many reasons as in my mind, he has become the lesser.Within the first few weeks it was obvious that there was more motive in hiring me than my experience . After repeatedly declining his advances, the job became pure hell. He would walk over to my desk, whack me in the back of my head and simply say that it just made him feel better. at times he would scream so loudly at me and although the mistakes made were by my staff and not me, that it would make the girls in the office cry. The warehouse people would peak thru the window just to see who was being massacred. And of course, it was always me.I worked very hard for this company, increased the sales, improved client relations and turned the previous problems around. There wasnt any justification in what he did. It became an absolute nitemare. After taking this bs for a year, i had finally had enough.Now you may be thinking that i clocked this cat in the jaw and trust me the thought had crossed my mind on more than a few occasions.However, once the screams began and the onlookers gathered, o, maybe about 25 of them. I let him have it.Verbally.I didnt care anymore about insubordination or loss of job, it didnt matter. It was about self respect.Well, it shut that jerk right up.Through out the day, the staff were smiling and winking and i had a few pats on the back in their approval of my actions.While i do not advocate violence, i do promote self respect. How you view yourself is extremely important and respect should be way up on the list.

[Moontanman]

Originally Posted by pamela

violence begets violence.....
It would appear Moontanman, that you became that which you were against. Beating up the bullies, made you the larger bully.

Pamela do you honestly believe that defending my self made me a bully? I never sought out anyone to intimidate, I simply didn't allow anyone the pleasure of intimidating me. I didn't always win (or even mostly win) but me being willing to fight if it was pushed on me took my off the list of people it was fun to bully. I was a little guy, no one would have taken me seriously as a bully.

As an adult most confrontations do indeed take on a more verbal aspect. Verbal is just that, say what you want let me say what i want, i am pretty good at verbal defense but I have never taken the idea of violence off the table if it is directed at me. If you are in the middle of a verbal tirade and you poke me or push me you will get poked or pushed back. It's just not in me to allow my self to be physically abused. If that make me a bad human then i am a bad human. In my adult life I have never had to hit anyone, I've come very close a few times but my need for self defense doesn't include striking first and a good verbal response has been sufficient so far in my adult life.

[pamela]

Originally Posted by moon

Pamela do you honestly believe that defending my self made me a bully?

Originally Posted by mm

When I was in school doing my best to kick the bullies ass worked well for me.

hmmm sounds more like alpha male and ego dude, did i misunderstand?

I didn't always win but the bully seldom wanted to risk it more than a few times.

so a couple good brawls is an end to a means?

I also defended other kids from bullies, mostly my nerdy buddies but I grew up hard.

saviour syndrome or just looking cool?

Knuckling under to a bully was just out of the question

. Yup, pride from the Apha male..

My youngest son managed to bloody a bullies nose once in the neighborhood and learned that bullies fear nothing worse than a victim who stands up to them.

i am curious did you praise his deed or show him a better way with nonviolence in response to his action?

As an adult most confrontations do indeed take on a more verbal aspect. Verbal is just that, say what you want let me say what i want, i am pretty good at verbal defense but I have never taken the idea of violence off the table if it is directed at me. If you are in the middle of a verbal tirade and you poke me or push me you will get poked or pushed back.

might be a good idea to let go of the emotion and speak clearly and concisely- you can convey your thoughts without it getting out of control

It's just not in me to allow my self to be physically abused. If that make me a bad human then i am a bad human.

silly! no one thinks you are a bad human nor would i want you to be abused. I do however know that you are capable of calm intelligent conversations, your posts in this forum have reflected that

[LaurieAG]

Hi Pamela, all,

I have worn spectacles for most of my life and I have scars under both of my eyebrows due to accidents not related to personal violence.

Due to this obvious sight threatening disadvantage I do not engage in fights.

I have been involved in 3 incidents (in my entire life) where I was assaulted by other people while wearing my spectacles.

(a) I had the shit belted out of me by using the passive Gandhi defense at high school.

(b) I had my spectacles broken when I walked through a crowd on a footpath and was given a forearm jolt to the throat (your legs go out from under you).

(c) and my reaction to being king hit from behind on a dark street.

These incidents weren't the result of anything to do with Alpha males, rather the opposite.

[pamela]

hey Laurie, don't misunderstand, my terminology was in reference to moon's reactions and not the bully identity. My point to him was to stop the violence and not join in to it. I understand getting beat up and the need to defend one's self. I was attacked when i was 25 by a male. I was beaten profusely and had my head introduced to a Ford countless times. I managed to escape from the butcher knife he pulled on me.Of course i defended myself.My death was insight.There is a time and place when reciprocated violence is necessary.This cat was no ordinary bully, he was a psychopath. Chances are, he was likely bullied and abused as a child, and has carried on the legacy

[Moontanman]

[quote]

Originally Posted by pamela

hmmm sounds more like alpha male and ego dude, did i misunderstand?

Alpha male.....guilty

so a couple good brawls is an end to a means?

yup, when nothing else works there is no doubt

saviour syndrome or just looking cool?

Neither, I take of the people I love, always. These guys and one girl were my friends, we hung together because of our mutual interest in science, math, and music. They could only cry when bullied, I was raised differently. Backing down was just not part of me, of course i wasn't above running if there were too many ( I did have a brain ) but eventually the odds would get better and I would do my best to take them down.

. Yup, pride from the Apha male..

No doubt, but an alpha male who knows who his friends are. God had better help anyone who would mess with my kids now, but i am still loyal to those who are my friends too.

i am curious did you praise his deed or show him a better way with nonviolence in response to his action?

The talk came before the action, he was afraid to walk to his friends house three blocks away, I told him that he had to decide if he would sneak around in fear or take control of his life. I told him a simple punch to the nose would keep the bully from bothering him, it worked, the bully went on to more passive victims and my son could walk the neighbor hood with out fear. He never took to bullying anyone himself even though a 6' kid like him could have. He still seems to attract those who need someone to hide behind. He freely takes care of those who need a safe friend to depend on. he is a fine man and I'm very proud of him.

might be a good idea to let go of the emotion and speak clearly and concisely- you can convey your thoughts without it getting out of control

I am never out of control, i always keep the conversation as far above the gutter as possible but when forced to do so I will drop down and fight.

silly! no one thinks you are a bad human nor would i want you to be abused. I do however know that you are capable of calm intelligent conversations, your posts in this forum have reflected that

[pamela]

okay, the thread title asks the question on how to stop the bullying.It might be a good idea to look at how we can prevent it. In rereading over the posts, we have painted the bully as merely an evil ogre.Whats behind the ogre? What fear drives this child and subsequent adult to resort to control tactics and demeaning words and violence? it is so easy to label and avoid looking at what suffering may lie underneath. For the child, what pain has been inflicted upon him that he has to lash out at others as away of expressing a form of control, when he is powerless at home. What drives this child to the point of exhibiting the very behaviour that he despises? As the child grows into the teenage years, and hormonal changes occur, how has the expression changed? Violence can easily be expressed under these conditions. The teen enters adulthood and now how does that play out in the work place, in a marriage?
Now the grown bully has a child, what now, will history repeat itself?
Of course intervention can occur at any one of these stages, what types of intervention do you think may change the outcome and essentially stop the bullying?