[mother engine]

i am interested in a discussion concerning the idea that religion should be expunged from society. a while ago i happen to see a program about mr. dawkins in which he was using the example of a bottom dwelling fish to show how the universe is not the result of design and a moment of absurdity hit me when the camera closed in on a young boy in the audience. here is a man demonstrating to children why there is no god. the problem i personally have with this is that i believe human awareness and the resulting fear of cessation is not intentional and can be detrimental to the ability of the average brain to function neccesitating belief in an afterlife where the conscious mind remains intact. unless people begin to alter themselves radically through genetic experimentation i think this will remain the case. i think dawkins argument typifies an arrogant denial in some scientists that all minds are not alike and that all people are not capable of finding comfort in atheistic science. thoughts?

[Tormod]

VERY interesting post. Thanks for starting a thread on this.

Can you clarify one point for me: What exactly is it that you have a problem with? That people are afraid of dying (and thus find comfort in God), or that a philosopher tries to convince them that there is no god?

[IrishEyes]

i think dawkins argument typifies an arrogant denial in some scientists that all minds are not alike and that all people are not capable of finding comfort in atheistic science.

I LOVE this statement!
I have to say that I have felt much the same for a very long time. And honestly, the longer I stay here at Hypography, the more obvious this seems to me. Just as there are different personality types, there surely have to be different 'mindsets', that are a direct result not only of your environment but also of your physiology. I am going to do some more studying, because I remember reading about this recently, so I will try to find some hard evidence to support this.

However, in looking at a number of people at this site, it seems very obvious, doesn't it? Of course, you will still get asked to define the "mind", I'm sure. And that will almost certainly cement it for me...

[Fishteacher73]

I think just as there is frictiion among people from the argument that "all people are equal" and the continual findings that specific groups excell in various abilities (and we are starting to find physiological variations in brain development) there will some people that are better equipped to deal with the concept of a mortality that is not a just a segue into another existence.

I think it is odd that it seems that there is an direct relationship to the people that accept an eternal life but argue the concept of infinity.

[Stargazer]

Science is not meant to give comfort, it's meant to provide the methods to reveal how nature works. Personally, I find pleasure from knowing instead of simply believing. I could of course decide to believe something that's simply not true, or at least completely unsupported, but I can assure you, I would feel horrible. I would actually know that I can't make things add up, I would know that I believe something that is not even close to be confirmed or at worst, something that's completely false.

Obviously, science can give comfort, safety and prolong our lives, as well as making our lives more entertaining. Through science we have advanced medicine and surgery. Through science we can travel, communicate, explore, share ideas and thoughts. We use science and technology for everything, and it often turns out to be incredibly useful. How useful has religion been so far?

Also, it's very well possible that there is a god. The problem is, of course, to know it when we see her. Do you? Does anyone? Not likely - because there is no definition, and where there is one, it's certainly not based on observations or logical conclusions. So, why not be content with what is? Isn't the universe marvellous as it is? Do we need to add something to spice it up? We are parts of a universe where 96% of the matter probably is a great mystery, and of the remaining 4% we barely know anything about. I think we have more wonders and beauty to discover before we grow so tired we actually have to make things up. Obviously, I'm not talking about not being creative anymore or not create art or literature anymore. I propose we see what is fiction and what probably isn't.

[mother engine]

thanks tormod, i agree that this is an interesting subject and i think relevant as well. specifically what i have a problem with is the insistance that religion serves no viable purpose for human kind and so should be eliminated. i am not a particularly religious person but i believe that an [non-political] religious alternative to atheism/agnosticism is essential to many people. one of the reasons is that to be comforted with thoughts of an afterlife is to be less likely to fall into despair for some people. not that religion is the opiate ofthe masses but then if it is maybe human beings en mass need an opiate to function. another more cynical reason would be to keep the 'sheep' in order the shepard may need to be beyond reproach, i.e. an all powerful god. there are other reasons of course but these came immediately to mind.

[Fishteacher73]

To paraphrase George Carlin:

"Religion is like the little extra sole they nail to the bottom people's shoes with club feet. Its a fine thing. Helps them get along through daily life better. We should not howerver nail the soles to the feet of natives."

[mother engine]

Originally Posted by Stargazer

Personally, I find pleasure from knowing instead of simply believing. I could of course decide to believe something that's simply not true, or at least completely unsupported, but I can assure you, I would feel horrible. I would actually know that I can't make things add up, I would know that I believe something that is not even close to be confirmed or at worst, something that's completely false.

i think the i's in this statement say it all. you are not me and likewise what works for you and interests you will not necessarily work for me. can you honestly speak for what anyone else needs when it comes to comfort or peace of mind?

[IrishEyes]

you guys are going to be the reason that i flunk out of college!!
Tormod, you need to put a limit on how many fresh new threads are allowed to be started in one afternoon... I need to study...!
I'll be back on later to try to catch up with all of this...

[mother engine]

Originally Posted by Fishteacher73

To paraphrase George Carlin:

"Religion is like the little extra sole they nail to the bottom people's shoes with club feet. Its a fine thing. Helps them get along through daily life better. We should not howerver nail the soles to the feet of natives."

likewise maybe we should not try to remove the soles that work.