[Thunderbird]

Originally Posted by Reaper

Oh, and Southtown, when we say progress, it is usually meant to mean moving away from superstition, bigotry, ignorance, etc. I am not sure if you are one of those people as well, but, well, religion for almost as long as it had existed has been strongly supportive of those.

I don't think people realize the real power of religion is in mythological aspect, not the church, or even history. Its the legend, the story, We project ourselves and create our future reality individually, and as a culture with our beliefs systems, that are constantly being fed by the mass media. You do not need to be religious to participate in this.
Matter of fact you can hardly escape it. Books of fiction, Fantasy movies, the stories we are told as children, the Saturday morning cartoons, the Friday night slasher flick. They all profoundly shape our fears, desires, and beliefs that reestablish the same shared pattern deep in our subconscious. They cycle outward again and again in the form of what we believe is our independent world veiw.
The same fears and desire to be saved from oblivion, the same hopes for order and Justus to prevail from the apparent chaos that surrounds us. Everyone finds there own way to deal with it, and know one is above it.

You may think your more evolved than the superstitions fanatics or the uneducated masses, the truth is we all find this same themes to participate in over and over no matter how sophisticated we think we are. The painting on the wall, the centerfold in the locker, the cross around your neck, the horse shoe over the door the book your reading the moves you watch, whether its Pans labyrinth, Lord of the rings, Vampire movies or a comic book. No matter where you turn the same underlying forces prevail to shape, and create our shared future.
I've come to believe that these stories, myths, or memes, are natures way of handing over the keys of the evolutionary process. We are no longer subject to the natural environment like our animal ancestors. We have,.. in a fundamental way, graduated from that plane of existence to another of our own making. A chaotic landscape of our own collective ethos.

[Southtown]

Originally Posted by Reaper

Oh, and Southtown, when we say progress, it is usually meant to mean moving away from superstition, bigotry, ignorance, etc. I am not sure if you are one of those people as well, but, well, religion for almost as long as it had existed has been strongly supportive of those.

Thank you for your answer. I was only trying to explain that change does not always equal progress. Progress is change in a certain direction, toward a certain goal. Ughaibu characterized 'scriptural religions' as inhibitive of progress because they are inhibitive of change. But they are actually only endpoints or goals toward which people can choose to change and also how they measure the amount of progress toward the goal that each change provides. The validity/authority of any 'scriptural religion' can be argued, as I said, of course.

Next comes authority. Moral authorities, how we decide what is right and what is wrong, are subjective. People submit themselves to particular ways of thinking for whatever reason, and by those ways of thinking they measure the amount of progress toward their moral goal that each of their actions achieve. Note, my morality is not applicable to your actions.

If a book is authoritative, it is by the choice of an individual. Believers in a book can't force you to submit your morality to that book. You still decide what you feel is right and wrong. For the sake of argument, can you describe why you characterize superstition, bigotry, and ignorance as bad?

Originally Posted by Reaper

No, it does not. And it's contradictory to your earlier statement.

FYI: Central limit theorem...

[InfiniteNow]

IT'S A GODDAMNED CRACKER!


Reproduced from: Pharyngula: IT'S A GODDAMNED CRACKER!

There are days when it is agony to read the news, because people are so goddamned stupid. Petty and stupid. Hateful and stupid. Just plain stupid. And nothing makes them stupider than religion.

Here's a story that will destroy your hopes for a reasonable humanity.

Webster Cook says he smuggled a Eucharist, a small bread wafer that to Catholics symbolic of the Body of Christ after a priest blesses it, out of mass, didn't eat it as he was supposed to do, but instead walked with it.

This isn't the stupid part yet. He walked off with a cracker that was put in his mouth, and people in the church fought with him to get it back. It is just a cracker!

Catholics worldwide became furious.

Would you believe this isn't hyperbole? People around the world are actually extremely angry about this — Webster Cook has been sent death threats over his cracker. Those are just kooks, you might say, but here is the considered, measured response of the local diocese:

"We don't know 100% what Mr. Cooks motivation was," said Susan Fani a spokesperson with the local Catholic diocese. "However, if anything were to qualify as a hate crime, to us this seems like this might be it."

We just expect the University to take this seriously," she added "To send a message to not just Mr. Cook but the whole community that this kind of really complete sacrilege will not be tolerated."

Wait, what? Holding a cracker hostage is now a hate crime? The murder of Matthew Shephard was a hate crime. The murder of James Byrd Jr. was a hate crime. This is a goddamned cracker. Can you possibly diminish the abuse of real human beings any further?

Well, you could have a priest compare this event to a kidnapping.

"It is hurtful," said Father Migeul Gonzalez with the Diocese. "Imagine if they kidnapped somebody and you make a plea for that individual to please return that loved one to the family."

Gonzalez said the Diocese is willing to meet with Cook and help him understand the importance of the Eucharist in hopes of him returning it. The Diocese is dispatching a nun to UCF's campus to oversee the next mass, protect the Eucharist and in hopes Cook will return it.

I like the idea of sending a scary nun to guard the ceremony at the next mass. But even better…let's send Webster Cook to hell!

Gonzalez said intentionally abusing the Eucharist is classified as a mortal sin in the Catholic church, the most severe possible. If it's not returned, the community of faith will have to ask for forgiveness.

"We have to make acts of reparation," Gonzalez said. "The whole community is going to turn to prayer. We'll ask the Lord for pardon, forgiveness, peace, not only for the whole community affected by it, but also for [Cook], we offer prayers for him as well."

Get some perspective, man. IT'S A CRACKER.

And of course, Bill Donohue is outraged (I know, Donohue is going to die of apoplexy someday when a gnat violates his oatmeal, so this isn't saying much).

For a student to disrupt Mass by taking the Body of Christ hostage--regardless of the alleged nature of his grievance--is beyond hate speech. That is why the UCF administration needs to act swiftly and decisively in seeing that justice is done. All options should be on the table, including expulsion.

Oh, beyond hate speech. Where does this fit on the Shoah scale, Bill? It shouldn't even register, but here is Wild-Eyed Bill the Offended calling for the expulsion of a student…for not swallowing a cracker.

Would you believe that the mealy-mouthed president of the university, John Hitt, is avoiding defending his student is instead playing up the importance of the Catholic church to the university? Of course you would. That's what university presidents do. Bugger the students, keep the donors and the state reps happy.

Unfortunately, Webster Cook has now returned the cracker. Why?

Webster just wants all of this to go away. Especially now that he feels his life is in danger.

That's right. Crazy Christian fanatics right here in our own country have been threatening to kill a young man over a cracker. This is insane. These people are demented fuckwits. And Cook is not out of the fire yet — that Fox News story ends with an open incitement to cause him further misery.

University officials said, that as for right now, Webster Cook is not in trouble. If anyone or any group wants to file a formal complaint with the University through the student judicial system, they can. If that happens, Webster will go through a hearing either in front of an administrative panel or a panel of his peers.

Got that? If you don't like what Webster Cook did, all you have to do is complain to the university, and they will do the dirty work for you of making his college experience miserable. And don't assume the university would support Cook; the college is now having armed university police officers standing guard during mass.

I find this all utterly unbelievable. It's like Dark Age superstition and malice, all thriving with the endorsement of secular institutions here in 21st century America. It is a culture of deluded lunatics calling the shots and making human beings dance to their mythical bunkum.

So, what to do. I have an idea. Can anyone out there score me some consecrated communion wafers? There's no way I can personally get them — my local churches have stakes prepared for me, I'm sure — but if any of you would be willing to do what it takes to get me some, or even one, and mail it to me, I'll show you sacrilege, gladly, and with much fanfare. I won't be tempted to hold it hostage (no, not even if I have a choice between returning the Eucharist and watching Bill Donohue kick the pope in the balls, which would apparently be a more humane act than desecrating a goddamned cracker), but will instead treat it with profound disrespect and heinous cracker abuse, all photographed and presented here on the web. I shall do so joyfully and with laughter in my heart. If you can smuggle some out from under the armed guards and grim nuns hovering over your local communion ceremony, just write to me and I'll send you my home address.

Just wait. Now there'll be a team of Jesuits assigned to rifle through my mail every day.

The above just seemed a relevant contribution to this thread.

[InfiniteNow]

This video seems to offer another relevant contribution. Watch, and enjoy.


Baracknophobia - James Dobson | The Daily Show | Comedy Central

[Moontanman]

Gagging at gnats and swallowing camels is what religion is all about. I'll see if I can score some crackers for you, with Episcopalian crackers do or do they have to be Catholic?

[InfiniteNow]

Atheist soldier sues Army for 'unconstitutional' discrimination - CNN.com

Story Highlights

• Army Spc. Jeremy Hall was raised Baptist but is now an atheist
  
• His sudden lack of faith cost him his military career and put his life at risk, he says
  
• Hall sued the Defense Department; claims military is a Christian organization
  
• Pentagon official: Complaints about evangelizing are "relatively rare"

Army Spc. Jeremy Hall, who was raised Baptist but is now an atheist, says the military violated his religious freedom.

Like many Christians, he said grace before dinner and read the Bible before bed. Four years ago when he was deployed to Iraq, he packed his Bible so he would feel closer to God.

He served two tours of duty in Iraq and has a near perfect record. But somewhere between the tours, something changed. Hall, now 23, said he no longer believes in God, fate, luck or anything supernatural.

Hall said he met some atheists who suggested he read the Bible again. After doing so, he said he had so many unanswered questions that he decided to become an atheist.

His sudden lack of faith, he said, cost him his military career and put his life at risk. Hall said his life was threatened by other troops and the military assigned a full-time bodyguard to protect him out of fear for his safety. <more at the link>

[Pyrotex]

Originally Posted by InfiniteNow

IT'S A GODDAMNED CRACKER!

...So, what to do. I have an idea. Can anyone out there score me some consecrated communion wafers? There's no way I can personally get them — my local churches have stakes prepared for me, I'm sure — but if any of you would be willing to do what it takes to get me some, or even one, and mail it to me, I'll show you sacrilege, gladly, and with much fanfare. ....

WAY TO GO, INFINITENOW!!!!!

My spine is just atingle with anticipation.

Now, you KNOW that a consecrated communion wafer (Catholic) is LITERALLY & PHYSICALLY the actual..

Flesh of Jesus Christ. Right?

So, watcha gonna do wif that wafer, hunh? Ya gonna pee on it and video the whole thing? Or you could lay the wafer on a fold-out of Miss July and gently massage the wafer with AstroGlide.

The very idea!! Spiritual Abuse of a Cracker!! You Go, Boy!

[InfiniteNow]

I'm seeing that it may not be 100% clear, but I didn't write that. It came from Pharyngula.


(but, I completely agree... rock on!)

[REASON]

Originally Posted by InfiniteNow

I'm seeing that it may not be 100% clear, but I didn't write that. It came from Pharyngula.


(but, I completely agree... rock on!)

I think everyone decided that they want to see videos of you violating some crackers (wafers, in case someone misinterprets my meaning).

I know I do.

[InfiniteNow]

I may be able to arrange that.