[nutronjon]

I read, the origin of the word "moral" was ancient Greek. It meant "to know good manners and the law". The law being science and universal laws, and our man made laws are suppose to be based on this higher understanding of law.

No amount of law can give us liberty and make our lives pleasant. If we want liberty and pleasant lives, we must have good manners. Good manners are more important than good laws. The size and organization of our government would be limited by good manners if we made good manners a priority. We would all be greatly impowered to experience the true meaning of self government, if good manners were our priority. This would radically change our experience of being and the importance of being as the gods, in that we can learn and reason.

I really want you all to know, how much I appreciate your good manners and thoughtful replies. Unlike all other forums I have participated in, you are giving me a feeling of trust, that counteracts all feelings of loneliness and dispair. I am feeling safe here. I am feeling like a flower seed sensing the longer days and that is time to sprout and grow. I have pushed gently out of the ground, and didn't get frozen with painful jeers. Your replies have been respectful,and thoughtful, and exciting. Imagine if this is what every child experieced in school, instead of feeling s/he is doesn't dare particpate in the class for fear of being proven stupid and inadequate.

The good manners you all are practicing, could change the world, ending fear and feelings of loneliness, and lifting mankind to its full potential. When I feel l accepted, I don't fear death, because being accepted is a bond with life, and life is constant change.

[Tormod]

I am extremely happy to read this. There are times when the only feedback I get is angry PMs from members who feel compelled to complain about this or that and who completely lack any understanding of the fact that all of the people who hang out here do so in their free time and that an enormous amount of work is spend on keeping our community tidy.

So thanks! I hope others feel the same way as you do.

[Tormod]

By the way "moral" comes from latin, "moralis", if I'm not mistaken.

[nutronjon]

Originally Posted by Tormod

By the way "moral" comes from latin, "moralis", if I'm not mistaken.

Thank you Tormod. Morality is one of my favorite subjects. I am especially excited by the science that goes with our understanding of morality, and my efforts to find the Latin root to "moral" lead to the following discovery:

http://www.hss.caltech.edu/~steve/moll.pdf
Defining morality
‘Moral’ (derived from the Latin moralis) and
‘ethical’ (from the Greek êthikos) originally
referred to the consensus of manners and
customs within a social group, or to an inclination
to behave in some ways but not in
others4. Through the centuries, philosophical
theories have adopted a deductive logico–
verbal approach to morality that aims to
identify universal principles that should
guide human conduct. By contrast, a scientific
approach to morality is emerging from the
documentation of changes in moral behaviour
in patients with brain dysfunction5, which
provides inferences that concern the major
dimensions of moral cognition. Moral cognitive
neuroscience, therefore, aims to elucidate
the cognitive and neural mechanisms that
underlie moral behaviour. Here, morality is
considered as the sets of customs and values
that are embraced by a cultural group to guide
social conduct, a view that does not assume
the existence of absolute moral values

[freeztar]

The problem I have with morals is that they are so contextual.
What is considered good moral practice in the US is considered rude in other places/cultures, and vise versa. Good manners work on a mono-cultural level, but digress on a poly-cultural level. Perhaps a solution to this is an international code of ethics, but how could it be facilitated?!

[InfiniteNow]

I must admit, my own manners very often go by the wayside when I hear people asserting that morality stems directly from religion. I take it as a personal insult, since I am not personally religious, nor do I ascribe to purple unicorns floating on clouds to give me 200 geishas when I die...

I am moral because it is a fundamental part of existing in a society. My morality is laid down by the codes of my social group, and I would be shunned if I broke the code of this group. This is the same way that morality would come from religion. I posit that it has nothing whatsoever to do with the spiritual or theistic aspect of their practice, and everything to do with the community effect.

Good manners are useful, as they are emergent representations of ones respect for others, however, they don't derive from some book written by delusional people claiming that the their words are from god.

Good manners are one thing, but hallucinations are quite another.


Sorry. I didn't really show very good manners in this post, nor am I certain that I even added to the underlying topic you raised in the OP. It was not my intent to derail your thread, and if I have, then that is a result of my own inabilities and I apologize. Regardless, thanks for opening this thread which presented me with an opportunity to share my thoughts on this topic with all of you.

[nutronjon]

Originally Posted by Tormod

By the way "moral" comes from latin, "moralis", if I'm not mistaken.

The Blackwell Dictionary of Western ... - Google Book Search

The above link won't copy and paste. It says Cicero used the word moralis for the Greek word êthikos. Both words dealing with character and social custom, and both are about considerations that lead to social harmony. So it appears both words mean the same thing, but are different because the languages were different.

Sometimes the effort to determine what is moral or ethical, takes into inconsideration the consequences of an act, and sometimes it does not. My perference is thinking in terms of universal law and determining moral as a matter of cause effect. I can not conscieve of another way of doing this, because what matters if it is not the result of the word or deed?

It seems often people object to a call to morality or a call to duty. In the US people often speak as though freedom means the freedom to do anything a person chooses to do, and no one has the right to impose restrictions. I think this results in power struggles that destroys civilization, and can make forums so unpleasant people of quality have nothing to do with them. I can not understand the objection to morality and duty. I am a hedonist, and desire pleasure. Good manners greatly increase my experience of pleasure.

[nutronjon]

Originally Posted by InfiniteNow

I must admit, my own manners very often go by the wayside when I hear people asserting that morality stems directly from religion. I take it as a personal insult, since I am not personally religious, nor do I ascribe to purple unicorns floating on clouds to give me 200 geishas when I die...

I am moral because it is a fundamental part of existing in a society. My morality is laid down by the codes of my social group, and I would be shunned if I broke the code of this group. This is the same way that morality would come from religion. I posit that it has nothing whatsoever to do with the spiritual or theistic aspect of their practice, and everything to do with the community effect.

Good manners are useful, as they are emergent representations of ones respect for others, however, they don't derive from some book written by delusional people claiming that the their words are from god.

Good manners are one thing, but hallucinations are quite another.


Sorry. I didn't really show very good manners in this post, nor am I certain that I even added to the underlying topic you raised in the OP. It was not my intent to derail your thread, and if I have, then that is a result of my own inabilities and I apologize. Regardless, thanks for opening this thread which presented me with an opportunity to share my thoughts on this topic with all of you.

I see nothing in your post to apologize for, and wonder why in the world you would think you had anything to apologize for? You are exactly on subject.

Let's pick up with what freeztar said about morality being social custom and how social custom varies around the world. Even within a culture there are subcultures. In another forum, I think it was Myspace, the subject of rudeness and social status was discussed with the agreement that being insulting, rude and crude is the best way to gain social status in some social circles. Young males participating in the discussion, expressed much concern about the negative social consequences of being polite and concerned about morality. I think this is most deserving of our attention. We are not speaking the whole truth, unless we speak this fact of life.

The first guy I wanted to marry, became a Hell's Angel as soon as he got a motorcycle. I thought it important to have a good vocabulary of cuss words, and wear as much black leather as possible, and smoke. I even got involved with minor theft, and was willing to get into fist fights. I can really understand having a status system that a good Christian would find objectable. I was young and out for excitement, with a huge need to prove I as tough. It was a completely different frame of mind than what I have today. The Greeks handle this with mythical stories about youthful folly.

I have Genhis Khan's own code of conduct, written by a man from China who traveled with Khan, as Khan wanted this man to record his history. Despite slaughtering men, women and children, the Mongols had a very high standard of morality, and the penalty for stealing or lying was death. To Khan the city people were the most immoral, because their way of life encouraged lying and stealing, and he commanded his people to never settle and begin accumulating things, like city people.

Dueling was consider away to maintain morality. Moslems are known for killing their daughters who have contact with men outside of marriage, and this too is away to maintain morality. The US might be the only modern country that has the death penalty, despite the objection of other modern countries, because the death peralty is suppose to maintain a degree of morality.

When it comes to morality and how we determine morality, there is much to be said, but before we can be honest, we need to get past feeling we need to apologize if we object to some religious notions of morality. Especially the very offensive religious notion that, "if you don't believe as I do, you don't know God and morals". Such a religious notion is like poison to democracy, and it was such a poison that destroyed Socrates, and Athens fell just as he warned it would.

How do we determine what is moral? We talk about what is moral and why we behave this way and not that way. That is what our freedom of speech is about. This is easier after age 25 when the frontal cortex is fully developed, and the older we get, the more we appreciate the exploration of morality. The scientific study of morality is also very encouraging, as much of our morality comes in our genes. I really want to talk about this.

[InfiniteNow]

For your viewing pleasure:

http://hypography.com/forums/theolog...tml#post183773

http://hypography.com/forums/philoso...tml#post159570

http://hypography.com/forums/philoso...html#post99783

http://hypography.com/forums/philoso...-morality.html

http://hypography.com/forums/philoso...34-morals.html

[Moontanman]

Are good manners and morality the same thing? For that matter is there a list of either that would be recognised world wide? For me manners mean being nice to everyone who will allow it, morality means not doing anything that will cause harm to others.