[Overdog]

My wife has just informed me that Ignorance belongs in the continuum with Knowledge, and that Wisdom does not belong there, That Wisdom subsumes it all, emotion, continuum 1, continuum 2, and experience.

(My wife happens to be a Professor of Education GMU)

So we have:

<-- Fantasy - Hope - Belief -->

<-- Ignorance - Knowledge -->

<--Wisdom--> (as a combination of the above + experience and emotion)

With Emotion encompassing it all.

[Overdog]

More input from my wife:

Pascal:

"Emotion has a reason of which reason knows not."

Dr. Priscilla Norton (my wife)

"We think about how we feel, and we feel about how we think."

[Overdog]

So, do we agree thus far?

[modest]

Not sure yet,

I’m sensing facts by reading Kant; increasing knowledge by trying to understand it; and forming beliefs from which to speak.

I will get back to you when beliefs have a firm foundation

[freeztar]

Originally Posted by modest

Someone could experience a round world then deny that experience and rob themselves of the knowledge for the sake of the "belief" in a flat world. I think this happens quite a bit more than people realize. So, I do think Kant is perseptively analyzing himself with this:

Ok, I see what you (and Kant) are saying. If we prefer belief over knowledge, even after we have obtained the knowledge that would make the belief obsolete, we have participated in denial and have removed knowledge in favor of belief.

The knowledge is still there though, it's just hidden under the shroud of denial. If one abandoned denial for affirmation, the knowledge would return, though not through any new experience.

[freeztar]

Originally Posted by Overdog

My wife has just informed me that Ignorance belongs in the continuum with Knowledge, and that Wisdom does not belong there, That Wisdom subsumes it all, emotion, continuum 1, continuum 2, and experience.

Very wise!

(My wife happens to be a Professor of Education GMU)

Hurrah! Pass the keyboard man!

So we have:

<-- Fantasy - Hope - Belief -->

<-- Ignorance - Knowledge -->

<--Wisdom--> (as a combination of the above + experience and emotion)

With Emotion encompassing it all.

What about rationality? I've always thought of it as a polar opposite to emotion. But perhaps it is within a continuum that emotion encompasses? Or is it another 'outlier' (for lack of a better word) that forms a union with the continuums?

[Moontanman]

When you use communication and emotion to describe reality you get this result in this or a similar order

Fantasy - Hope - Belief - realization of ignorance - Rationality - Knowledge - Wisdom

Of course this can be derailed at any time by Denial

[Galapagos]

The difference between believing and knowing that there are fairies in the bottom of the garden is that in order to know this requires that fairies actually be in the bottom of the garden.

[jedaisoul]

Originally Posted by Galapagos

The difference between believing and knowing that there are fairies in the bottom of the garden is that in order to know this requires that fairies actually be in the bottom of the garden.

Yes, but how do you know they are there? Is merely observing them sufficient? You could be hallucinating (too many magic mushrooms)?

There is a difference between an observation and a fact (or knowledge). An observation is what you saw or experienced. A fact is an observation that it is repeatable by others, who observe substantially the same thing. So, to be termed "knowledge" the observation needs to be confirmed by others (preferably independently, and not whilst under the influence of hallucinogenic drugs).

So I may believe that I know that there are fairies at the bottom of my garden, but without independent confirmation, it remains a belief.

There is also an element of it fitting into a conceptual framework, but facts take priority over conceptual frameworks. If a fact does not fit the framework, it is generally the framework that is wrong!

[Overdog]

Originally Posted by Overdog

So we have:

<-- Fantasy - Hope - Belief -->

<-- Ignorance - Knowledge -->

<--Wisdom--> (as a combination of the above + experience and emotion)

With Emotion encompassing it all.

Now, I'm looking at this from the perspective of an Information Systems Engineer, and I see that we have identified several entities.

Fantasy - Hope - Belief

Ignorance - Knowledge

Wisdom

Experience

Emotion

Barring any monkey wrenches from Modest when he comes back, we seem to think that the entities we listed on the same line (Fantasy, Hope, Belief) are not fundamentally different from each other, but are categories of the same thing. We also seem to agree that, at the least, some relationships do exists between some of these entities.

We need a better way to model this. I am working on that and will post it soon...in the meantime I would like to hear some thoughts on what properties these entities posses, and in particular what are the properties of Belief and Knowledge that distinguish them as distinct entities (ie; fundamentally different)

What I mean is, if I were going to put Belief and Knowledge in a relational database, they would need to have some properties that distinguish them that are not merely properties of degree, value or type. If there are no distinctions between Knowledge and Belief other than degree, value, and type, then I'm forced to conclude they are in fact fundamentally the same entity.

Also I'd like your thoughts on the relationships between data (or Facts), information, and concepts. When a fact aquires meaning, does it become information, a concept, or can it be either or both?