[Overdog]

Originally Posted by jedaisoul

Yes, but how do you know they are there? Is merely observing them sufficient? You could be hallucinating (too many magic mushrooms)?

There is a difference between an observation and a fact (or knowledge). An observation is what you saw or experienced. A fact is an observation that it is repeatable by others, who observe substantially the same thing. So, to be termed "knowledge" the observation needs to be confirmed by others (preferably independently, and not whilst under the influence of hallucinogenic drugs).

So I may believe that I know that there are fairies at the bottom of my garden, but without independent confirmation, it remains a belief.

There is also an element of it fitting into a conceptual framework, but facts take priority over conceptual frameworks. If a fact does not fit the framework, it is generally the framework that is wrong!

So in this case I would say we have property for distinguishing Knowledge from Belief, but that property would be a Value ie; Confirmed, Not Confirmed.

[jedaisoul]

Originally Posted by Overdog

We need a better way to model this. I am working on that and will post it soon...

Might I suggest that you take a look at the thread "The Dimensions of Truth". There truth is modelled as a four dimensional array. There seem to me to be a number of similarities with what you are trying to achieve...

[modest]

Originally Posted by Overdog

Barring any monkey wrenches from Modest when he comes back...

I'm sure I have a monkey wrench here somewhere... No. I guess not. I could submit some things for further review:

• Our link to the natural world is the 5 senses.
• Those five senses lead to experience.
• Experience leads to all thought of any form (emotion, reason, knowledge, ect.)
• Ignorance can be a lack of experience (placing it outside the realm of thought all together) or a failure to understand an experience (an experience that failed to connect to knowledge or wisdom)
• Knowledge is the structured organization of experience into something useful - Not a useful action, just a useful understanding.
• Reason is the process of doing the above (organizing experience into knowledge) or a method of doing the the same.
• Belief is maybe nothing more than the confidence that the previous step worked and will lead to the next step. I'm not too sure of this.
• Wisdom is applying Knowledge to “life” which by all our definitions so far requires reason, knowledge, and experience.

Of course, this is not at all comprehensive. I seem to have left out "facts" and some other things. Submitted for further review in any case.

Now where did that monkey wrench go...

-modest

[Thunderbird]

Does "Intuitive awareness," fit in there anywhere? trusting your instincts.

[modest]

Originally Posted by Thunderbird

Does "Intuitive awareness," fit in there anywhere? trusting your instincts.

I would submit that instinct is nothing more than the tendency to process experience in a manner consistent with the physical layout of our brain. Are you thinking differently?

-modest

[Thunderbird]

Originally Posted by modest

I would submit that instinct is nothing more than the tendency to process experience in a manner consistent with the physical layout of our brain. Are you thinking differently?

-modest

Yea I think this type of awareness was been dulled a bit by the weight of memories. Trusting your gut is not thinking about or referencing the past experience its about sensing in other organs that this is the right dision or this is the wrong one. People that work in certain professions' such as soldiers, law enforcement and even successful business people say your gut responses should never be ignored.

Intuition is not referencing past experiences, which can be a knowledge or it can be a phycological block. Unreasonable fears can well up automatically triggered by memories that do not apply. I think the ability to trust you intuition is stronger in women, I have on many occasions listened to may gut when it came to make a decision and would ask my women friend how they felt about this or that. If i could see the antenna working I would take that info in, on the other hand if I knew they where referencing something else like judgment based on past experiance that do not apply i would be more likely to go with my own, but take it in all the same for what it is.

[modest]

Clever as always Tbird,

I don’t think I disagree on any particular point you make. I am also a strong believer in trusting your instinct. As you say, this often goes against the grain of memories and experience. For instance:

A woman is about to get on an elevator. A man steps in before her and she gets a bad feeling. They are the only two around. There is no particular reason she should fear this man. All her experience says there is nothing wrong with getting on an elevator with an individual of the opposite sex. Yet, her gut says something’s amiss.

I’m a strong believer in trusting your gut in such a situation. She should wait until the next lift is available - hurting the poor bloke’s feelings? Perhaps, but her instinctual action is probably the best action.

But, this thread is about knowledge, not action. In the confines of “thought”, I believe my definition above is applicable. I believe fear comes from the structure and biochemistry of our brain and body. It can influence action and it can be called intuition. As it relates to knowledge, I believe it flavors our understanding of the world. It puts human perspective on truth. I’m not sure how this would integrate into my list above.

[Zythryn]

Originally Posted by Overdog

What are the differences between facts, information, and knowledge? How does information become Knowledge? What is the difference between believing something, and knowing something?

In my opinion:
Facts are generally accepted beliefs defined by the group or society agreeing on said 'facts'. The society may define that facts meet some level of objective rigor or that they fit some teachings.

Information is sensory input. It is entirely dependant upon the person that receives the sensory input.

Knowledge is the memory of one or more peices of information.

In the first person, there is no difference between saying 'I believe' and 'I know'. If you are speaking in the third person 'They know' vs. 'They believe' it depends on if you believe the other person's 'facts' are true or not. Belief and Knowledge is very much a matter of semantics.

[Thunderbird]

Originally Posted by modest

Clever as always Tbird,

I don’t think I disagree on any particular point you make. I am also a strong believer in trusting your instinct. As you say, this often goes against the grain of memories and experience. For instance:

A woman is about to get on an elevator. A man steps in before her and she gets a bad feeling. They are the only two around. There is no particular reason she should fear this man. All her experience says there is nothing wrong with getting on an elevator with an individual of the opposite sex. Yet, her gut says something’s amiss.

I’m a strong believer in trusting your gut in such a situation. She should wait until the next lift is available - hurting the poor bloke’s feelings? Perhaps, but her instinctual action is probably the best action.

But, this thread is about knowledge, not action. In the confines of “thought”, I believe my definition above is applicable. I believe fear comes from the structure and biochemistry of our brain and body. It can influence action and it can be called intuition. As it relates to knowledge, I believe it flavors our understanding of the world. It puts human perspective on truth. I’m not sure how this would integrate into my list above.

I see your point, but consider the source I’m an artist when I am reading and trying to understand a particular field of science I process the information in a certain order. Have you ever taken one of those test. It has to do with finding how you assimilate information? After the test they assign you a set of letters representing the order in the way you process information. like.. nfps
Once I have saturated my mind with data, I will let my subconscious left brain take over to create some order, something that I can perceive in my minds eye, then review the information again. Its like the right left side of the mind bouncing the information back and forth until it is reduced to something I can integrate into knowledge to be stored away.

[Overdog]

Originally Posted by Zythryn

In my opinion:
Facts are generally accepted beliefs defined by the group or society agreeing on said 'facts'. The society may define that facts meet some level of objective rigor or that they fit some teachings.

Information is sensory input. It is entirely dependant upon the person that receives the sensory input.

Knowledge is the memory of one or more peices of information.

I think I agree with this, except I would propose that facts without context have no meaning, and only when facts have some meaning do they become information.

In the first person, there is no difference between saying 'I believe' and 'I know'. If you are speaking in the third person 'They know' vs. 'They believe' it depends on if you believe the other person's 'facts' are true or not. Belief and Knowledge is very much a matter of semantics.

I think this is a very important point, and goes directly to issue of the distinction between Knowledge and Belief.

Consider the model below:


Cognition would be:

Mental processes involved in gaining knowledge and comprehension, including thinking, knowing, remembering, judging, and problem solving. These are higher-level functions of the brain and encompass language, imagination, perception, and planning.

And in this model, there is no distinction between knowledge and belief, Knowledge and Belief are products of the cognitive process, and how they are distinguished is a matter of personal judgement.