[Nitack]

Originally Posted by coberst

Yes?

I was establishing the background for my observations.

[Overdog]

Originally Posted by Nitack

I was establishing the background for my observations.

And you said exactly what I was trying to figure out how to say, only better and with authority based on experience. Thank you.

I, on the other hand, have been working with Corporate America most of my life as a consultant trying to help them solve/streamline their business problems/processes. Very few of them are particulary satisfied with the educational system either.

So, if they have all this power and influence you (coberst) say they have, why haven't they fixed it?

I can tell you why, because as Nitack says, it just ain't true. If Corporate America had their way with education, we'd have a bunch of trade schools...

[coberst]

Originally Posted by Overdog

I can tell you why, because as Nitack says, it just ain't true. If Corporate America had their way with education, we'd have a bunch of trade schools...

Exactly my point. Our educational system is a bunch of trade schools. Education in America is a commodity, an object of commerce. Few recognize any other purpose for our schools and colleges.

[sanctus]

Nitack, you said

This is a subject I am a bit invested in. Our education system is FAR from perfect, but at the same time recognize that it is better than most of what is out there.

I wonder where you got this, I would say that in the western world it is around less than average (mathematically spoken)...see for example pisa the downloadable report in pdf format

[Overdog]

Originally Posted by coberst

Exactly my point. Our educational system is a bunch of trade schools...Few recognize any other purpose for our schools and colleges.

Actually it isn't. There are trade or vocational schools, and there are universities and colleges.

A quick google of "trade schools vs university" reveals this clearly, and if you read a few of the 16,500,000 links, you will find some which explain the difference between a trade school and a university.

I don't have any idea the number of people who don't recognize any other purpose for our schools and universities, but after spending some 10 years in three different universities and being married to a university professor for 15, I feel pretty confident in saying that those are not the people who are running our universities.

EDIT:

Oh, and let me add that after another 15 years working in "Corporate America" I can tell you that the first thing we're told when we complain about the quality of the students they are turning out is "We're not running a trade school!"

[Nitack]

Originally Posted by sanctus

Nitack, you said


I wonder where you got this, I would say that in the western world it is around less than average (mathematically spoken)...see for example pisa the downloadable report in pdf format

As is often the case though, people only think of the western world and forget that there is a whole lot of world out there. My opinion is colored by latin america, africa and the middle east. In most of Latin America or Africa you have three options; you pay for school and are basically taught to read and very basic math, you attend a christian missionary school where you are mostly taught religion with some education mixed in, or you don't go to school. In the Middle east the education level is generally higher, but almost all schools focus mostly on teaching the Koran and hating americans.

[sanctus]

There also non-western countries in the Pisa study. And that thing of teaching to hate americans, seems a massive brainwashing result of Bush's anti-terror politcs of the past years or do you have any reliable sources?

[Buffy]

A sad and ironic datapoint on this debate:

Larry Ellison, CEO of Oracle and one of the world's richest men, has been well known among the high tech industry leaders claiming that there must be increases in visas for immigrant programmers because our educational system simply can't provide enough of them.

A few months ago though, he went crying to the county tax board, claiming that because his property is now overvalued, that he should pay $3 million per year LESS in property taxes. For those of you unfamiliar with US funding for education, property taxes supply the vast majority of the money, and will cost the San Mateo County school system approximately $1.4 million per year.

That's a lot of teachers.

Of course we know that the real motivation for all those immigrant visas is that they hold the immigrants hostage--they lose their visa, they go home--so they can easily be forced to take pay that is far less than the market rate for such talent.

Its just so sad to see these leaders of society deceitfully and disingenuously paying lip service to the needs of education while working to ensure its failure for their own avaricious desires.

It was beautiful and simple, as truly great swindles are,
Buffy

[Grains]

Originally Posted by sanctus

There also non-western countries in the Pisa study. And that thing of teaching to hate americans, seems a massive brainwashing result of Bush's anti-terror politcs of the past years or do you have any reliable sources?

I was curious about the "Teaching to Hate American" comment and went searching for some resources. This is what I found.

FOXNews.com - U.S. Islamic Schools Teaching Homegrown Hate - Opinion
BBC NEWS | Asia-Pacific | Malaysia's doubts over Muslim schools
What Are Islamic Schools Teaching? - article by Daniel Pipes (a little much)
Look who's teaching <br>Johnny about Islam
ABC News: Some Saudi Schools Teach Hatred of U.S.

I do have to point out though that they are not the only one's teaching "hate". You can look around at many other religious organizations and find the same right back towards them.

In regards to his claim though it looks to be true.

[coberst]

Education: Combat between Habits of Adults and Impulse of Young

Dewey informs us that the docility and plasticity of the young are taken advantage of in our educational institutions. The original youthful acceptance of adult supervision has not been given a fair chance to impulsively examine the possibility for a different mode of being. The young student “is loaded with convention, biased by adult convenience…practically rendered into an equivalent of non-assertion of originality, a pliant accommodation to the embodied opinions of others.”

The young are taught what to think and not how to think. Teaching what is easier and safer than teaching the how of human thought.

Native activities of the young are often accommodative assimilation and others that tend toward exploration and discovery. But adult custom accentuates the tendencies toward conformity and eliminates those toward variation and independence. Curiosity and critical independence is tamed.