The UN Is Impotent

alxian · 08-02-2005

what if the UN was more like so much sci-fi... like the fifth element, a black world leader (no doubt ex-military)? in that it commands a force so specialized and powerful no nation on earth or in space could oppose it. both army and peacekeeper/humanitarian aid provider all at once? demanding delegates from some nations to help others?

what if the UN had teeth, balls and a helping hand?

consider STEALTH, the talon are mere man coupled to ultra hightech machines.

what if the talon pilots grew into something more formidable, genegineered super soldiers able to infiltrate any country at anytime to restore/enforce a world standard of order.

the UN then could become a NEW WORLD ORDER, type governemt, able to set and enforce basic human rights, but more importantly control world and interplanetary trade.

also keeping an "big brother" type eye on everything in real time, with spies and satelites everywhere. with a need to know clearance allowing it to know how many sheets remained on every roll of toilet paper in every toilet stall anywhere.

would make for good sci-fi i think. since some countries would undoubtedly pre-program a satelite to fall to earth onto the world governments headquarters... just happens it was packing a nuclear warhead..

but seriously, i think it would be in everyones best interest to have a global overgovernment able to interveen to stop local regimes for stepping far out of line, (quelling ethnic cleasing type conflicts) or able to overturn local governments decisions to attack corporations. world trade of course requires competition and all but occassionally those decisions are still nationalistic and don't reflect the good of the world. giant corporations fighting against each other need a fair and impartial arbiter, one able to gut them should they decide to take it outside.

who'd sponsor them? who would pay for it? the people, a tiny tax for living in a world at peace with itself. also those major multinational corporations whom the global government would be protecting against local governments and their crippling taxes. best to pay their dues to only one master than several (best for consumers).

of course once the tables have turned and we (the individual citizen) realize that the global government offers much more than our local governments could possibly offer... how long would it be before we swear our allegiance to them alone? allowing the NWO to sweep in and behead our local governemt and establish a representative of their own. one of them?

they being nearly a different species entirely, engineered for perfect governance.

corporations would be allowed to fight of course that would be a boring. but with an artistic style of conbat, kanly, written up for wars to be fought with as little collateral as possible, kinda like low loss of life robots wars with machine not humans fighting with each other, each side keeping a running tally of the cost of war factoring it into the need to continue fighting, the bottom line would force a decision before attrition and loss of real lives would force the global government to step in and spank both nations.

what about nations dead set against a world governement? like the US, who'd wish to be that world conscience or suppress anyone opposing them (the blind leading the blind if the US ruled the world..). would be quite a fight though...

could the world survive under one non-competitive government? (well unless our trading partners on the moon and mars have their own over governments and thousands of subbordinate officials (democratically ellected nationals...aka local government)) in which case "we" compete with "them" and the multinationals and multiplanetaries with each other(thus keeping the species motivated, but most importantly civil).

IrishEyes · 08-02-2005

One world government, huh? It's an interesting, and very frightening (to me), thought.
While I agree that the UN is impotent, I'm not sure a 'new world order' would actually solve things. The people that run it have to come from some place, don't they? What's to stop them from helping out their own 'home' countries?
Every country has to send people? How many? Is it a set number, or is it proportional to their population?
And you want the local governments to add yet another tax to their citizens, to support this NWO? Can every person in every country afford this tax? Will it also be proportional to what each country, each citizen, can afford? Or will bigger, more prosperous, countries foot the bill?
I read about something like that happening. And frankly, it scares the heck out of me, but that's a personal thing, I guess.
Nice thought put into the idea though.

Qfwfq · 08-02-2005

What you describe doesn't sound like the idea of "United Nations" at all, it sounds like something very dire and verging onto global despotism. How would democracy be guaranteed by such a thing? Technology is something to watch out for as it is, we need institutions to guard us against abuse of it, not to wield it as power. Trouble is, that is happening, it's the military and the secret services that do it and they can get out of hand.

I would auspicate the UN developing toward a greater authority and not just what it is. Especially, banning of veto power. The UN's shortcoming IMHO is that of being merely diplomatic and not a true institution of international political power.

UncleAl · 08-02-2005

The United Nations (not called the UN for nothing, or rather, it is), as with NASA, is a exercise in political redirection. Money goes in and favors come out. Standard operating procedure is invisiblity. This is peppered with crises as expedient. The UN exists for nothing beyond that.

John Bolton is a terrible UN ambassador for the US because he has a straight line history of accomplishing goals despite his superiors' orders. What could he possibly plan for his UN tenure? It would be like having a Customer Service window at the Department of Motor Vehicles. That isn't what the organization is about.

The Congressional Record is a fabricated document - a lie. Little of what it so voluminously, punctiliously documents ever transpired. Laws passed by Congress are piffle. The real meat of political oppression is the Code of Federal Regulations. More than 10,000 bureaucrats with word processors are hammering away each day creating a brave new world. Anything published in CFR that is not protested within 90 days takes on the full force of legislated law - arrest, fines, criminal prosecution, imprisonment, confiscation, Federal armed intervention. So easy...

The UN is satisfied being a gilt-edged money launderette. They'd rather not stick their heads (further) up (and could do nothing more if they did).

Southtown · 08-02-2005

It is ignorant to think that those in power somehow magically possess character more noble than the rest of humanity.

Then all the elders of Israel gathered together and came to Samuel at Ramah, and said to him, “Look, you are old, and your sons do not walk in your ways. Now make us a king to judge us like all the nations.”

But the thing displeased Samuel when they said, “Give us a king to judge us.” So Samuel prayed to the LORD. And the LORD said to Samuel, “Heed the voice of the people in all that they say to you; for they have not rejected you, but they have rejected Me, that I should not reign over them. According to all the works which they have done since the day that I brought them up out of Egypt, even to this day—with which they have forsaken Me and served other gods—so they are doing to you also. Now therefore, heed their voice. However, you shall solemnly forewarn them, and show them the behavior of the king who will reign over them.”

So Samuel told all the words of the LORD to the people who asked him for a king. And he said, “This will be the behavior of the king who will reign over you: He will take your sons and appoint them for his own chariots and to be his horsemen, and some will run before his chariots. He will appoint captains over his thousands and captains over his fifties, will set some to plow his ground and reap his harvest, and some to make his weapons of war and equipment for his chariots. He will take your daughters to be perfumers, cooks, and bakers. And he will take the best of your fields, your vineyards, and your olive groves, and give them to his servants. He will take a tenth of your grain and your vintage, and give it to his officers and servants. And he will take your male servants, your female servants, your finest young men, and your donkeys, and put them to his work. He will take a tenth of your sheep. And you will be his servants. And you will cry out in that day because of your king whom you have chosen for yourselves, and the LORD will not hear you in that day.” — I Samuel 8:4-18 nkjv

C1ay · 08-02-2005

I'm kind of glad it is impotent. Imagine how dangerous it would be with the authority to enforce it's corrupt ideology.

Tormod · 08-02-2005

All forms of government have some sort of corruption at some level - I think it is inevitable. Not because of structure but because of people.

But the UN does play an important role in many aspects - most of all the role of unification.

I am not going to argue that it is a perfect organisation, but I do think it is an important one.

IrishEyes · 08-02-2005

Important for what? What is the purpose? And does it meet those goals?
I know we've discussed this one before, and you thought I was some crack-pot for suggesting the US pull out, but I really can't seem to figure out what the point of the organization is anymore.
Can someone help me here?

infamous · 08-02-2005

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tormod

All forms of government have some sort of corruption at some level - I think it is inevitable. Not because of structure but because of people.

Power corrupts, Absolute power corrupts absolutely.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tormod

But the UN does play an important role in many aspects - most of all the role of unification.

This is very true but only if unification is the result!!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tormod

I am not going to argue that it is a perfect organisation, but I do think it is an important one.

Absolutely Tormod, the UN could be very effective if the membership could reach a majority consensus. But without an affirmed standard with which to act, they are completely ineffective. In fact, without a consensus to act upon, the UN is a thorn in the side of reasonable gobal progress.

Buffy · 08-02-2005

As Winston Churchill once said "Jaw Jaw is better than War War". Its all about communication: if people have a place where they're forced to talk to each other in a civilized manner, they're less likely to try to annihilate each other. Its not perfect, but it is useful.

We'll see how Bolton does in this situation...

Its interesting to note that conservatives are on both sides of what Bush I labeled (admiringly!) the "New World Order"...Its not just for liberals! The idea that it will become a "world government" is getting an interesting trial run with what's going on with the European Union and many countries now deciding *not* to approve its more centralized power structure. Americans are not following this, but they should...

Cheers,
Buffy

08-02-2005	#1 (permalink)
alxian Explaining Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 583	The UN Is Impotent what if the UN was more like so much sci-fi... like the fifth element, a black world leader (no doubt ex-military)? in that it commands a force so specialized and powerful no nation on earth or in space could oppose it. both army and peacekeeper/humanitarian aid provider all at once? demanding delegates from some nations to help others? what if the UN had teeth, balls and a helping hand? consider STEALTH, the talon are mere man coupled to ultra hightech machines. what if the talon pilots grew into something more formidable, genegineered super soldiers able to infiltrate any country at anytime to restore/enforce a world standard of order. the UN then could become a NEW WORLD ORDER, type governemt, able to set and enforce basic human rights, but more importantly control world and interplanetary trade. also keeping an "big brother" type eye on everything in real time, with spies and satelites everywhere. with a need to know clearance allowing it to know how many sheets remained on every roll of toilet paper in every toilet stall anywhere. would make for good sci-fi i think. since some countries would undoubtedly pre-program a satelite to fall to earth onto the world governments headquarters... just happens it was packing a nuclear warhead.. but seriously, i think it would be in everyones best interest to have a global overgovernment able to interveen to stop local regimes for stepping far out of line, (quelling ethnic cleasing type conflicts) or able to overturn local governments decisions to attack corporations. world trade of course requires competition and all but occassionally those decisions are still nationalistic and don't reflect the good of the world. giant corporations fighting against each other need a fair and impartial arbiter, one able to gut them should they decide to take it outside. who'd sponsor them? who would pay for it? the people, a tiny tax for living in a world at peace with itself. also those major multinational corporations whom the global government would be protecting against local governments and their crippling taxes. best to pay their dues to only one master than several (best for consumers). of course once the tables have turned and we (the individual citizen) realize that the global government offers much more than our local governments could possibly offer... how long would it be before we swear our allegiance to them alone? allowing the NWO to sweep in and behead our local governemt and establish a representative of their own. one of them? they being nearly a different species entirely, engineered for perfect governance. corporations would be allowed to fight of course that would be a boring. but with an artistic style of conbat, kanly, written up for wars to be fought with as little collateral as possible, kinda like low loss of life robots wars with machine not humans fighting with each other, each side keeping a running tally of the cost of war factoring it into the need to continue fighting, the bottom line would force a decision before attrition and loss of real lives would force the global government to step in and spank both nations. what about nations dead set against a world governement? like the US, who'd wish to be that world conscience or suppress anyone opposing them (the blind leading the blind if the US ruled the world..). would be quite a fight though... could the world survive under one non-competitive government? (well unless our trading partners on the moon and mars have their own over governments and thousands of subbordinate officials (democratically ellected nationals...aka local government)) in which case "we" compete with "them" and the multinationals and multiplanetaries with each other(thus keeping the species motivated, but most importantly civil). __________________ don't call me skinny! i'm just ... <<< ... aerodynamic! its in my initials, an anagram.. seriously!

08-02-2005	#2 (permalink)
IrishEyes Reminiscing Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: watching the snow melt... Posts: 2,690	Re: The UN Is Impotent One world government, huh? It's an interesting, and very frightening (to me), thought. While I agree that the UN is impotent, I'm not sure a 'new world order' would actually solve things. The people that run it have to come from some place, don't they? What's to stop them from helping out their own 'home' countries? Every country has to send people? How many? Is it a set number, or is it proportional to their population? And you want the local governments to add yet another tax to their citizens, to support this NWO? Can every person in every country afford this tax? Will it also be proportional to what each country, each citizen, can afford? Or will bigger, more prosperous, countries foot the bill? I read about something like that happening. And frankly, it scares the heck out of me, but that's a personal thing, I guess. Nice thought put into the idea though. __________________ "Lucky in love, well maybe so. there's still a lot of things you'll never know... like why each time the sky begins to snow - you cry..." - Dan Fogelberg

08-02-2005	#3 (permalink)
Qfwfq Exhausted Gondolier Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: isolated from the world Posts: 4,445	Re: The UN Is Impotent What you describe doesn't sound like the idea of "United Nations" at all, it sounds like something very dire and verging onto global despotism. How would democracy be guaranteed by such a thing? Technology is something to watch out for as it is, we need institutions to guard us against abuse of it, not to wield it as power. Trouble is, that is happening, it's the military and the secret services that do it and they can get out of hand. I would auspicate the UN developing toward a greater authority and not just what it is. Especially, banning of veto power. The UN's shortcoming IMHO is that of being merely diplomatic and not a true institution of international political power. __________________ Who's afraid of the Big Black Hole????? Go Black Hole! W the Black Hole! Hasta que el agujero negro nos traga, siempre! Hypography Forum PITA...... er, Administrator.

08-02-2005	#4 (permalink)
UncleAl Creating Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Southern California, USA Posts: 1,042	Re: The UN Is Impotent The United Nations (not called the UN for nothing, or rather, it is), as with NASA, is a exercise in political redirection. Money goes in and favors come out. Standard operating procedure is invisiblity. This is peppered with crises as expedient. The UN exists for nothing beyond that. John Bolton is a terrible UN ambassador for the US because he has a straight line history of accomplishing goals despite his superiors' orders. What could he possibly plan for his UN tenure? It would be like having a Customer Service window at the Department of Motor Vehicles. That isn't what the organization is about. The Congressional Record is a fabricated document - a lie. Little of what it so voluminously, punctiliously documents ever transpired. Laws passed by Congress are piffle. The real meat of political oppression is the Code of Federal Regulations. More than 10,000 bureaucrats with word processors are hammering away each day creating a brave new world. Anything published in CFR that is not protested within 90 days takes on the full force of legislated law - arrest, fines, criminal prosecution, imprisonment, confiscation, Federal armed intervention. So easy... The UN is satisfied being a gilt-edged money launderette. They'd rather not stick their heads (further) up (and could do nothing more if they did). __________________ Uncle Al http://www.mazepath.com/uncleal/ (Toxic URL! Unsafe for children and most mammals) http://www.mazepath.com/uncleal/lajos.htm#a2

08-02-2005	#5 (permalink)
Southtown Still Learning Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Cascades Posts: 1,508 Blog Entries: 1	Re: The UN Is Impotent It is ignorant to think that those in power somehow magically possess character more noble than the rest of humanity. Then all the elders of Israel gathered together and came to Samuel at Ramah, and said to him, “Look, you are old, and your sons do not walk in your ways. Now make us a king to judge us like all the nations.” But the thing displeased Samuel when they said, “Give us a king to judge us.” So Samuel prayed to the LORD. And the LORD said to Samuel, “Heed the voice of the people in all that they say to you; for they have not rejected you, but they have rejected Me, that I should not reign over them. According to all the works which they have done since the day that I brought them up out of Egypt, even to this day—with which they have forsaken Me and served other gods—so they are doing to you also. Now therefore, heed their voice. However, you shall solemnly forewarn them, and show them the behavior of the king who will reign over them.” So Samuel told all the words of the LORD to the people who asked him for a king. And he said, “This will be the behavior of the king who will reign over you: He will take your sons and appoint them for his own chariots and to be his horsemen, and some will run before his chariots. He will appoint captains over his thousands and captains over his fifties, will set some to plow his ground and reap his harvest, and some to make his weapons of war and equipment for his chariots. He will take your daughters to be perfumers, cooks, and bakers. And he will take the best of your fields, your vineyards, and your olive groves, and give them to his servants. He will take a tenth of your grain and your vintage, and give it to his officers and servants. And he will take your male servants, your female servants, your finest young men, and your donkeys, and put them to his work. He will take a tenth of your sheep. And you will be his servants. And you will cry out in that day because of your king whom you have chosen for yourselves, and the LORD will not hear you in that day.” — I Samuel 8:4-18 nkjv __________________ “Welcome to the desert of the real.” -- Morpheus

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08-02-2005	#6 (permalink)
C1ay ¿42? Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: 33.78N 84.66W Posts: 5,773	Re: The UN Is Impotent I'm kind of glad it is impotent. Imagine how dangerous it would be with the authority to enforce it's corrupt ideology. __________________ Clay Editor and Forum Administrator stego anyone? Add yourself to Hypography's Frappr. "There are only 10 kinds of people in the world -- .....Those who understand binary, and those who don't." "Draw no conclusions before their time."

08-02-2005	#7 (permalink)
Tormod Hypographer Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Oslo, Norway Posts: 12,944 Blog Entries: 4	Re: The UN Is Impotent All forms of government have some sort of corruption at some level - I think it is inevitable. Not because of structure but because of people. But the UN does play an important role in many aspects - most of all the role of unification. I am not going to argue that it is a perfect organisation, but I do think it is an important one. __________________ Your Friendly Neighborhood Administrator Want to sponsor Hypography? Buy a print in our Fall 2008 Benefit Sale Found a problem? Report it in our Bug Tracker Science is not only compatible with spirituality; it is a profound source of spirituality. - Carl Sagan

08-02-2005	#8 (permalink)
IrishEyes Reminiscing Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: watching the snow melt... Posts: 2,690	Re: The UN Is Impotent Important for what? What is the purpose? And does it meet those goals? I know we've discussed this one before, and you thought I was some crack-pot for suggesting the US pull out, but I really can't seem to figure out what the point of the organization is anymore. Can someone help me here? __________________ "Lucky in love, well maybe so. there's still a lot of things you'll never know... like why each time the sky begins to snow - you cry..." - Dan Fogelberg

08-02-2005	#10 (permalink)
Buffy Resident Slayer Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Sunnydale, CA Posts: 6,675	Re: The UN Is Impotent As Winston Churchill once said "Jaw Jaw is better than War War". Its all about communication: if people have a place where they're forced to talk to each other in a civilized manner, they're less likely to try to annihilate each other. Its not perfect, but it is useful. We'll see how Bolton does in this situation... Its interesting to note that conservatives are on both sides of what Bush I labeled (admiringly!) the "New World Order"...Its not just for liberals! The idea that it will become a "world government" is getting an interesting trial run with what's going on with the European Union and many countries now deciding not to approve its more centralized power structure. Americans are not following this, but they should... Cheers, Buffy __________________ "If you do not agree with anything I say, I'll not only retract it, but deny under oath that I ever said it!" __________________________________________________ ______________-- Tom Lehrer "The shrinks diagnosed me a sociopath with paranoid delusions. But they’re just out to get me cause I threatened to kill them." Forum Administrator Hypography Science Forums - Science for Boys and Girls! Its not for nothing that we hang out here.

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