Determinism vs. Freewill

[pgrmdave]

Originally Posted by lindagarrette

This discussion has been thoroughly visited and there is a hypography on the topic. (Which I wrote a couple of years ago.)

Here is the hypography mentioned, it has a few sites which attempt to explain the possibility of freewill in a deterministic universe.
http://www.hypography.com/topics/Laplaces_Demon_112215.cfm

[mother engine]

if i am a construct of many, perhapes infinite particules and if these particles work together to become the deciding factor in how i feel and what i think and do than one could say (as i have in the past) that freewill cannot exist because all decisions are determinedby a complexity below the surface of rational thought. but then one could also say that there is no surface of rational thought at all and that though the sense of self(i/me) is an aspect of the many it is not an illusion of a whole but both a whole and a community. further one could suggest that something cannot be enslaved by itself so that the concept of freewill represents a linguistic conundrum. because i have a sense of self does not seperate me from what makes me up and though language is suited to the whole mind (mind as in in the part of you you call 'yourself') rather than its individual components we are restricted in our termonology, enslaved by the limitations of language but mentally free in the sense that we are our own limitation. maybe i am running around in circles trying to simply state that the idea of freewill is identical to the idea of the soul in that true freedom of will may not be able to exist unless the mind/self is divined from a substance beyond scientific measurement. freewill in my opinion is more a metaphysical concept than a psychological or purely scientific one.

[Freethinker]

Sorry for the delay in responding. I have been busy and will be disapearing again for a while soon.

Originally Posted by pgrmdave

FT, What would you consider a new idea? Everything is made of matter and energy, none of that is new, anything created would merely be a new arrangement of that.

Exactly. If there were truly the possibility of Free Will we would not be restricted to just new arrangements of the same things.

What would I consider "new"? If I had Free Will I might be able to come up with something. And that's the point isn't it?

Once more we are back to "Prove X doesn't exist".

Originally Posted by pgrmdave

Would you say that music is not new? If anything, shouldn't jazz be considered having been 'new', as it was such a radical departure from standard music at the time, with its unusual chord structure, and swung notes?

What is new about "things" making noise? What is new about finding certain combinations of noise from certain things to be more enjoyable than other combinations or other things?

Now perhaps if we could asnmdhbn from some fksdnifsi.

[Freethinker]

Originally Posted by mother engine

maybe i am running around in circles trying to simply state that the idea of freewill is identical to the idea of the soul in that true freedom of will may not be able to exist unless the mind/self is divined from a substance beyond scientific measurement.

Yes RE the circles. I was getting dizzy. the simple def works much better.

First comment is the sudden popping into existence of additional agents. divined. What support is there to allow us to accept any claim of a divine source that divined this mind/self?. Ever heard of Ockham's Razor?

Next we get to substance beyond scientific measurement. What claim is this making? Then what support can you provide to allow us to accept this as an explanation?

The claim seems to be that there can be a substance

substance - physical material from which something is made or which has discrete existence (WWWebster)

that there is something that exists in our physical world, that is to say can interact with the other stuff that exists in our physical world. Yet this interaction is beyond scientific measurement.

Show us how ANYTHING can EXIST/ INTERACT with our physical existence and not produce an effect which can be captured? Can it recieve data from us, can we recieve data from it? Heat? Pressure? EMF? In what way is it a substance if does not interact in any way with our physical existence?

Originally Posted by mother engine

freewill in my opinion is more a metaphysical concept than a psychological or purely scientific one.

And as such it would not be something that exists/ affects/ is involved with our actual existence. IOW we don't have Free Will.

[mother engine]

Originally Posted by Freethinker

ALL "Choices" are a culmination of EVERYTHING and the actual "choice" is the results of the electrochemical processes of the brain which has been configured to it's current state by nature/ nurture.

and you know this how?