Determinism vs. Freewill

[sanctus]

Geko, what you say seems to me a statement that freewill doesn't exist: we are what we are because we are influenced (I'm influenced therefore I am), when we make a choice we do it as a result of all the influences we got, this makes having other things influence on us and so on.

[lindagarrette]

This discussion has been thoroughly visited and there is a hypography on the topic. (Which I wrote a couple of years ago.) So far, no one has answered my outstanding question by giving me an example of free will. Until then, the theory of causal determinism stands.

There's no point in going over the same material. If you have an example of the "null hypothesis", then what iis it? Othewise you are just speculating and expressing unfounded opinions. This is a science forum, remember.

[TINNY]

determinism implies a clockwork universe right?

[geko]

Idiosyncracies, persona, character etc., are a product of choices we've been influenced towards making in life

[geko]

Originally Posted by sanctus

we are what we are because we are influenced (I'm influenced therefore I am), when we make a choice we do it as a result of all the influences we got, this makes having other things influence on us and so on.

Yes, that sounds like my opinion

[geko]

And the reason why i think we have choice is because we have intent - but this doesnt deny the influence of our past

...

Maybe this opinion is illogical, anyone?

[geko]

Hmm...

1) We make choices by intent
2) We experience influence from our past

3) 1+2 = determined................?

I guess this is the question - of which some say we're determined, and i make a line between influenced and determined. Maybe im wrong. I just dont see that a choice in the past WILL lead to another PARTICULAR choice, rather it may do.

To me it's fuzzy, is the line drawn anywhere? Lindgarette? care to supply info? (ill look for you hypog)

[TINNY]

Here's Linda's hypography:
http://www.hypography.com/topics/Lap...mon_112215.cfm
all the links are about chaos theory, quantum theory and some naturalist's philosophy. maybe we should look into behavioral psychology too as this link explains fundamental matters with respect to our total past learning history:

http://www.islamic-world.net/papers/persthry.htm

it details how our actions are based on the physical, social and inner influences.

[lindagarrette]

It isn't necessary to plow through all the aspects of determinism to understand why it is a reality. If you understand the scientific method, then you already get it. Thought and anaysis are also helpful. I keep point out that no one can contradict it but so far no one seems to even want to try. That would be a first step. And it is the core of the scientific method.

[TINNY]

it is probably true that on the subatomic level, all seems deterministic. but reductionism does not always apply. Why? Consider this: sodium is an atom with certain characteristics such as melting points, reactive with water etc... chlorine is this greenish yellow substance. when the two are combined, they manifest totally different characteristics which we know as sodium chloride or salt. it is colorless now. and, as chlorine was toxic, salt is not. don't you see? when subatomic particles combine to produce atoms, those atoms open the door for a whole range of new possibilities. and their characteristics are more and more complex. that's the importand part - more complex. simple covalent and ionic molecules can combine to produce complex organic molecules and polymers and DNA. do see the pattern? Now, as the culmination arrives at DNA, possibilities are endless. It can reproduce! Wow! who would have thought that those silly ignorant subatomic molecules can work together to reproduce! So what do we get? Well, the simplest would be single-celled organisms.... in the end, whole systems such as respiration and blood circulation combined can produce organisms of such exceptional complexity. Now, it is possible that the whole culmination of progression in the end arrives at human beings which represents a quantum leap in complexity that it is not impossible that humans have free will. that might be the next in the line of progression who knows. So, we do research. And current studies in behavioral sciences indicate free will such as the link I put in my previous post about the Learning-based Personality Theory.
PHeww... so what do you think guys?