Determinism vs. Freewill

[pgrmdave]

Originally Posted by TINNY

see? the determinism vs freewill battle pops up everywhere. someone's got to start a thread on it.

At Tinny's request.

[IrishEyes]

Ok, I'm in. What's the context of the topic, though? Are you saying there is, or is not, Free will?

And if so, free will to do what, exactly?

[TINNY]

PG,
I had clicked the 'new thread' button and typed 'Determinism vs Free will' on the title form three times already. But I didn't have the courage to click the 'Post new thread'...
Anyway, this should get the fire going:
http://www.artsci.wustl.edu/~philos/...t/quantum.html
It's about the relation of metaphysics and QM, which suggests free-will. here's an excerpt

1. Free will. Many people are convinced that humans have free will, and yet are also convinced that the Newtonian-mechanical goings-on of things as large as neurons makes no room for free will. They thus turn to quantum mechanics in the hope that the non-determinism of the collapse of the wave function will provide a foot in the door for free will. Of course the wave function collapse is, according to current theory, random, and it is not clear that this is any better than determinism when it comes to explaining free will. Nevertheless, the hope seems to be that, at least in some cases, consciousness exerts its influence on the world through effecting some collapses, presumable some in the brain somewhere, in one way rather than another.

Irish, it's good to see you back in the thick of the action. But don't run away when the going gets tough.

[pgrmdave]

Originally Posted by IrishEyes

Ok, I'm in. What's the context of the topic, though? Are you saying there is, or is not, Free will?

And if so, free will to do what, exactly?

I'm going to stay out of this one for a while, just to see where it goes

At least, I'll try to stay out.

Originally Posted by IrishEyes

And if so, free will to do what, exactly?

The free will to make choices as opposed to following the laws of physics with regard to our brain. Whether or not the universe, given its initial starting conditions, would always develop the same, or whether intelligent life can affect it.

[pgrmdave]

Originally Posted by TINNY

PG,
I had clicked the 'new thread' button and typed 'Determinism vs Free will' on the title form three times already. But I didn't have the courage to click the 'Post new thread'...

What can I say, I'm willing to take risks, make mistakes, get messy!

[TINNY]

I didn't have the courage because of my track record . Nobody would take the thread seriously and give a fair evaluation on both sides. Your's is still clean - so don't worry about it.

[pgrmdave]

Originally Posted by TINNY

Your's is still clean

So far

[TINNY]

Central to this discussion is whether the mind is a mere computer or non-computational.

[geko]

Because these are my thoughts on it, ive taken this from my post in the 'natural it is' thread::

Stating human action as completely determined denies the complexity i feel. Sure, human will is influenced constantly, but the choices are our own because who are we if not what we've been influenced toward? This, as an identity, equals freewill.

[TINNY]

who are we if not what we've been influenced toward?

i can't understand this part.