Responsibility within Determinism

[pgrmdave]

Assuming a deterministic universe, why is there personal responsibility, can people really be held accountable if it was inevitable? Or are those who are holding them accountable merely doing the inevitable?

[lindagarrette]

Originally Posted by pgrmdave

Assuming a deterministic universe, why is there personal responsibility, can people really be held accountable if it was inevitable? Or are those who are holding them accountable merely doing the inevitable?

Determinism means whatever we do is part of the event. Our behavior is included as a cause of the next event, so in that sense, we do have an influence but it is based on everything else that we have experienced in the past. We can look at previous behavior and if we knew all the variables involved in an action, we could describe why it happened. But we are so much part of the system that we have no choice but to take the next step when it is presented. So it appears to us that we are responsible. This seems very counterintuitive but it has to be the way things work. Otherwise, it would be possible for events to occur for no reason whatsoever and that's never happened, other than metaphycisally. The open question is whether or not determinism applies equally to the quantum level. It may and we just don't know enough to understand how.

[lindagarrette]

Originally Posted by pgrmdave

Assuming a deterministic universe, why is there personal responsibility, can people really be held accountable if it was inevitable? Or are those who are holding them accountable merely doing the inevitable?

To answer your questions directly, yes to both.

[Aquagem]

This came from another thread, but the story about Epictetus and Marcus Aurelius captures the fundaments of this whole line of thinking for me. Until we find out something to change the whole groundplan of the discussion, we're stuck here for all time. Does that mean we're in Hell??

Originally Posted by mother engine

a teacher was speaking about b. f. skinner and determinism when a student spoke up that the belief in determinism gave rise to an excuse to 'do whatever you want' and to my horror the teacher smiled and agreed and that was that. .

Hi, there, and welcome to the Unending Discussion of free will and determinism! This first example is a conundrum that pops up continuously -- If I am fully determined by the laws of physics since the Big Bang, what's to keep me from doing just as I please? Here's the answer: If I'm fully determined, then I can't possibly do ANYTHING "just as I please". I can only do what I've been determined to do from the beginning of time! I have no free will to do anything -- just a illusory sense that I have freedom. If embracing determinism leads me to a life of dissipation or violence, there is nothing I can do to prevent it.

So the question, which pops up in all sorts of contexts, has an answer, after all, although it's not a very satisfying one for most people. We have the feeling that we are free to do what we want. Our neural machinery has a mental cue that has evolved to tell us when our perceptions arrive at the conclusion we can do or are doing something that is not determined. But, as you said, "It may not be true", which I don't think is stated often enough. I think every scientific paper (and certainly ANYTHING touching on religious ideas) should end with those words as a matter of social ritual, to force to face the fact that we just might not know what we're saying.

My favorite story that captures the sense of this argument is a fragment from Stoic philosophy. (I'm remembering the story - some details may be fuzzy.)

Marcus Aurelius, the philosopher emperor, had a slave, Epictetus, (later freed) who was also a philosopher. As the story goes, Epictetus knocked an expensive vase off a table and it shattered on the floor. Marcus Aurelius starting beating him for it. Epictetus cried out ,"Master, as a believer in determinism, you know that I had no choice in this matter, but was predestined from the beginning of time to break that vase!" Marcus Aurelius replied, still swinging, "And you, as a believer in determinism, know then that I have no choice but to beat you!"

[mother engine]

one thing to note concerning determinism and responsibility is that having our decisions manufactured for us on a chemical level does not mean that all of this is cut and dry (this happened because it was going to happen). within the makings of one mind there is enough complexity to suggest that we are not slaves to preset machinery but to a random system of chemical reaction dependent on an infinate number of factors. this is less like conventional slavery or a fixed computer logic than it is like a windblown leaf from the evolutionary tree of life. in other words, responsibility may not represent a universal morality but it may be a functional conceptual offspring of a chemical process forever beyond our understanding (as a culmative offspring of said process) because its complexity is limited only to infinate influence. so basically one mind set on a very complex course and yet influence from another mind may alter said course and so on until a semblance of order is established between them. but if the burden of proof is on those who believe in something than judgement concerning responsibility is always invalid because a universal morality cannot be proven without divine intervention. so responsibility can exist without freewill though it would be an absurdity.

[geko]

Originally Posted by Aquagem

Marcus Aurelius, had a slave, Epictetus, who was also a philosopher. As the story goes, Epictetus knocked an expensive vase off a table and it shattered on the floor. Marcus Aurelius starting beating him for it. Epictetus cried out ,"Master, as a believer in determinism, you know that I had no choice in this matter, but was predestined from the beginning of time to break that vase!" Marcus Aurelius replied, still swinging, "And you, as a believer in determinism, know then that I have no choice but to beat you!"

[pgrmdave]

I think what I am saying is that personal responsibility assumes choice, a person decided to do something wrong and thus must pay the consequences. If people are products of their environment, albeit incredibly complex products of an incredibly complex environment, then there can be no choice, so no true responsibility.

[lindagarrette]

Originally Posted by pgrmdave

I think what I am saying is that personal responsibility assumes choice, a person decided to do something wrong and thus must pay the consequences. If people are products of their environment, albeit incredibly complex products of an incredibly complex environment, then there can be no choice, so no true responsibility.

You are on track although there is responsibilty arising from cause. Take dogs, for example, who are often punished for "bad" behavior. Actually,there are no bad dogs, only bad training. We usually apply the same logic to humans although we give them a break if they appear to act in self defense or have some pathological condition. Theoretically, there should be no punishment, only retraining or treatment.

[mother engine]

thus we find ourselves in the realm of religion (specifically christianity) where humans are only deemed fit to judge each others actions. unfortunately in north america this rarely happens due to the missuse of morality in the legal system, a system where people are still asked to swear on a book in which swearing (not the prophane kind) is concidered a sin.