"God Bless America!"

[pgrmdave]

And of course religion justifies more bad than atheism does. Atheism cannot support anything, as it is a lack of belief, not a belief itself.

[Fishteacher73]

Atheism justifies nothing, neither good nor bad. Religion has bee nused to justify just about anything someone could do at one point in time or another.

[Aquagem]

Originally Posted by Freethinker

Show us an example of ANYTHING in which religion has a more positive outcome than non-religion.

I can't resist this one.

Religion is masterful and unparalleled in its ability to make us feel good about ourselves because there's somebody upstairs who just thinks we're ducky, no matter how badly we screw things up. Science, with its devotion to facing the truth, shrieks, "You're blowing it! You're melting the polar ice cap! You're driving life to extinction! You're overpopulating the planet!" Not at all good for soothing those uncomfortable thoughts that you really should be doing something about these problems. But religion -- religion is just MADE for that kind of thing.

[Freethinker]

Originally Posted by pgrmdave

FT - you know the fallacy in this argument - religion has NEVER done anything, any more than atheism has ever done anything. People do things, not belief systems.

OK, perhaps I should rephrase it. But it really is difficult because so many people want to play games with words like "religion". As in "I believe in Christ, but not religion". Thus claiming that being a Christian is not following a religion. Absurd I know, but getting more common. So trying to frame the question (as you demonstrate) is very difficult. But here goes.

Show us any example of a proactive effort by an individual or group which has resulted in a net positive gain or advancement to society and/ or the human race in areas such as general knowledge, scientific or medical science, longevity, comfort, social interaction, societal diversity, general human advancement , ... which can be shown to be primarily driven by specific religious motivation based on a specific religious structure, dogma and/ or source of revelation, which can not be shown to be done more effectively in a Secular fashion and does not conflict with other specific religious structure, dogma or source of revelation of that same religious orientation.

Does this help cover it?

[Freethinker]

Originally Posted by pgrmdave

And of course religion justifies more bad than atheism does. Atheism cannot support anything, as it is a lack of belief, not a belief itself.

"With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion." Steven Weinberg,

[Freethinker]

Originally Posted by Fishteacher73

Atheism justifies nothing, neither good nor bad. Religion has bee nused to justify just about anything someone could do at one point in time or another.

The trick is showing that in fact the religious tenets of the person is actually the motivating factor. That they did not predetermin, based on Secular tenets, what they would do. And then alter find ways to credit their religious leanings. And to do so in contradiction to actual tenets of that religion.

[Freethinker]

Originally Posted by Aquagem

I can't resist this one.

Religion is masterful and unparalleled in its ability to make us feel good about ourselves

Please show us factual data to support this claim.

The data I have shows this to be wrong.

[mother engine]

Originally Posted by Freethinker

Show us any example of a proactive effort by an individual or group which has resulted in a net positive gain or advancement to society and/ or the human race in areas such as general knowledge, scientific or medical science, longevity, comfort, social interaction, societal diversity, general human advancement , ... which can be shown to be primarily driven by specific religious motivation based on a specific religious structure, dogma and/ or source of revelation, which can not be shown to be done more effectively in a Secular fashion and does not conflict with other specific religious structure, dogma or source of revelation of that same religious orientation.

doesn't all of this apply to the idea that science is superior to religion socially. through the use of science people live longer and far more comfortable lives yes. through the use of science the human population is growing out of control [the lives saved by immunization far out weigh those prevented by contraceptives] and weapons exist that jeopardize all human existance. not that i don't i enjoy flushing my waste away at the flip of a switch and the avalibility of water and medicine. i am just not ready to worship at the alter of scientific methodology because i have been raised to be reliant on some of its results. technology has given rise to escapist fantasy to distract the sheep from revolution but this is just a crass substitute for religious poetics. you may not like religion personally and you may think science is the best thing going but this is an OPINION not a fact. the fact is that science (indirectly or directly the end result is the same) is responsible for more destruction and varied sufferance than a thousand religions could be misinterpreted to inspire. compare those abused at the hands of the inquisitions to those abused by nazi doctors during ww3 and tell me exactly what the differance is. i have no real issue with the scientific method or with religious text but arrogance and violence can be found in the practitioners of both. whether it be tomas torquemada or eduard wirths the end result is the same. attack religion all you want but its need has kept it alive and will continue to do so. if what you hate is ignorance than be prepared to acknowledge scientists as well as clergymen for the problem lies in human nature not in books or beliefs.

[Freethinker]

Originally Posted by Freethinker

Please show us factual data to support this claim.

The data I have shows this to be wrong.

I won't bother waiting. But I will live up to my side. I will provide some of the data I referred to:

Argyle and Beit-Hallahmi ("The Psychology of Religious Belief")- religion fosters greater authoritarianism, dogmatism, suggestability, dependance, inadequecy and anxiety.

C.D. Batson & W.L. Ventis ("The Religious Experience: A Social- Psychological Religion" Oxford University Press)- "the relationship between religious involvement and mental health is negative rather than positive."

J.E. Dittes (The Psychology of Religion" Addison Wesley)- religion is associated with a weak and constricted ego.

L.B. Brown ("The Psychology of Religious Belief")- confidence about religion correlates with conservatism, dogmatism and authoritarianism.

[Freethinker]

Originally Posted by mother engine

doesn't all of this apply to the idea that science is superior to religion socially.

Depends on how you define "science". "Science" is a process. One that is based on logical reasoning of verifyable data. As such yes it is a superior approach.

Originally Posted by mother engine

through the use of science people live longer and far more comfortable lives yes. through the use of science the human population is growing out of control [the lives saved by immunization far out weigh those prevented by contraceptives]

Nice start, then you just start making it up as you go. The nmore Secular the nation, the greater level of population control you will find. The more religious the population, the higher the preganacy rate. Third world coountries which are heavily infested by religious missionaries that enforce intentional ignorance of birth control have the highest population growth rate.

It is RELIGIOUS influences that are causing the uncontrolled population growth. And in geography that can least handle it, but is most strangled by religious influence. Look at Latin America!

Originally Posted by mother engine

and weapons exist that jeopardize all human existance.

Yes and built and under the control of those that openly state a Crusade or fatwa.

Originally Posted by mother engine

not that i don't i enjoy flushing my waste away at the flip of a switch and the avalibility of water and medicine. i am just not ready to worship at the alter of scientific methodology

Simple minded bifurcation. Only a religious addiction would promote the concept of a need for worshipping something. Openminded, er, .. Freethinkers, do not have that problem.

Originally Posted by mother engine

you may not like religion personally and you may think science is the best thing going but this is an OPINION not a fact.

Empty claims, easy to make, but lets see you stand behind it. Where should we start the comparison and find which side FACT is on? Let's see which side offers unsupportable opinion and which has facts behind it.

Originally Posted by mother engine

the fact is that science (indirectly or directly the end result is the same) is responsible for more destruction and varied sufferance than a thousand religions could be misinterpreted to inspire.

I see, so when religious superstition casued a reduction in cats, which increased the rat population and thus fleas, and poof the plague, when Science came along with a solution religion failed to provide, after religion caused it and could not solve it at all, it was still better for society that religion then tried to stop the scientific solution from being implemented because it would interefer with it's god's will.

Originally Posted by mother engine

compare those abused at the hands of the inquisitions to those abused by nazi doctors during ww3 and tell me exactly what the differance is.

Oh, you mean the ones that wore "Gott mitt uns" (God is with us) belt buckles? (And I believe it was WW2, not 3) The one's whose leader, Hitler, wrote “(man )has the sacred duty, each in his own denomination, of making people stop just talking superficially of God's will, and actually fulfill God's will, and not let God's word be desecrated. For God's will gave men their form, their essence and their abilities. Anyone who destroys His work is declaring war on the Lord's creation, the divine will.” and "By defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord,"