Movement Gives Meaning to Time

[coberst]

If you are interested in “meaning” I suggest for study “The Birth and Death of Meaning” Becker, “Philosophy in the Flesh” by Lakoff and Johnson, “More Than Cool Reason” by Lakoff and Turner, “The Meaning of the Body” by Johnson, “Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance” and “Lila” by Pirsig.

[jedaisoul]

For what it is worth, I would suggest that change gives a meaning to time. Change includes motion, and both are functions of time, but it is difficult to conceive of time other than as change.

[modest]

Originally Posted by jedaisoul

For what it is worth, I would suggest that change gives a meaning to time. Change includes motion, and both are functions of time, but it is difficult to conceive of time other than as change.

You can't have movement and change without space either. I wonder if the most basic thing we could say is: space gives meaning to time and time gives meaning to space. Put them together and you can measure change, motion, entropy, and everything else.

~modest

[jedaisoul]

Originally Posted by modest

You can't have movement and change without space either. I wonder if the most basic thing we could say is: space gives meaning to time and time gives meaning to space. Put them together and you can measure change, motion, entropy, and everything else.

I agree that you can't have motion without space, but you can have change that is not dependent upon space and motion. You can't have change without time. So time and space are not on a par in this respect.

[modest]

Originally Posted by jedaisoul

So time and space are not on a par in this respect.

I believe they absolutely are.

Originally Posted by jedaisoul

you can have change that is not dependent upon space.

I can think of no example. If something has no space to move or change - it cannot be described doing so. No space, no movement, no change.

~modest

[jedaisoul]

Originally Posted by modest

If something has no space to move or change - it cannot be described doing so. No space, no movement, no change.

What about pigment fading in the sunlight?

[modest]

Originally Posted by jedaisoul

What about pigment fading in the sunlight?

Both sunlight and the chemical reaction of pigment fading are examples of things moving in space. It really should be obvious you can't have movement without space. Movement is meters/second or space/time. You have to have both space and time to have movement or "change".

~modest

[coberst]

I am inclined to say that space is a literal reality and time is an abstract idea. We can experience space just as we can experience a tree but we cannot say the same thing about time.

[modest]

Originally Posted by coberst

I am inclined to say that space is a literal reality and time is an abstract idea. We can experience space just as we can experience a tree but we cannot say the same thing about time.

Impossible to experience space without time. Impossible to measure or observe anything without time. Also, by Einstein's hole argument it's impossible to experience space without matter.

You need all three for anything to be real. Time, space, and matter.

~modest

EDIT:
by matter I include energy and the like

Second Edit:

I should expand on this thought and support what I'm saying better. You can't see things unless the light moves from the thing to your eye. The movement of light requires time. You can't feel something unless electrical signals move from your fingers to your brain requiring time. An object cannot have temperature unless it's molecules are moving which requires time.

A person on a planet watches a rocket ship go into a black hole. They see time slow down on the rocket as it gets closer to the event horizon. When the rocket gets to the event horizon time on the rocket is zero - it is dilated to zero by time dilation. When time reaches zero it is impossible to observe the rocket. It disappears. Without time there is no way to observe the rocket.

You cannot experience anything (space included) without time.

[jedaisoul]

Originally Posted by modest

Both sunlight and the chemical reaction of pigment fading are examples of things moving in space. It really should be obvious you can't have movement without space. Movement is meters/second or space/time. You have to have both space and time to have movement or "change".

I agree that you have to have space to have movement, and I also agree that there is movement involved in the process of pigment fading (the earth rotating on its axis and around the sun). The question is, would the pigment fade anyway if there was no movement? I think that the answer is yes.

I.e. Movement is a form of change, but not the only one.