What to do when democracy fails.

[questor]

If citizens lack the sophistication to cope with technology, what is the bottom line? Do we halt all research, limit research, or deal with the lack of sophistication?
People are NOT created or born as equals.

[coberst]

Originally Posted by questor

If citizens lack the sophistication to cope with technology, what is the bottom line? Do we halt all research, limit research, or deal with the lack of sophistication?
People are NOT created or born as equals.

Once we recognize the problem we can then begin to create a solution.

[CraigD]

Originally Posted by coberst

The point is that whether you call it a democracy or vegetable soup we live in a form of government wherein the citizens are sovereign …

Coberst, you’re just repeating the claim you made in post #1, which I criticized in post #7, without addressing the criticism.

That we agree on the meaning of words is important in any use of language. Sovereignty does not mean “having the right to vote” or “not a subject of a monarch”. When applied to an individual, it means being a monarch. It is, therefore, technically incorrect to assert that US citizens are sovereign.

The belief that US citizens are (or through making certain verbal or written statement can become) sovereign is, to the best of my knowledge, held only by members and sympathizers of the sovereign citizen movement. Though of interest to students of sociology and the wierd, the core claims of this movement – a bizarre collection of political theories typically proposing that the 14th Amendment and/or the early 1970s breakdown of a de jure gold standard made illegitimate some or all governments in the US, resulting in a transfer of sovereignty from the US government to each individual citizen – are not considered correct by most scholars, or by any US court. Because of the movement’s links with racial supremacy groups and high profile criminals such as Timothy McVeigh, most people are uncomfortable being associated with the idea of “sovereign citizens”. An example of a sovereign citizen movement website is Uniform Commercial Code & Sovereignty Rights Overview - Eliminate Credit Debt.

Coberst, if you know of people other than yourself or members and sympathizers of the sovereign citizen movement claiming that US citizens are sovereign, please provide a reference to their writing.

Practically, I think the following is a good test of sovereignty: If you can have one or more people jailed or executed, you’re sovereign and they’re not. If one or more people can have you jailed or executed, you’re not sovereign, and they are.

Originally Posted by coberst

… and in most cases lack the sophistication required for that task. Furthermore they often lack the will to perform their task adequately.

This is too non-specific for me to understand what you mean, coberst. Can you give an example of a person failing to perform their task adequately because of lack of sophistication or will?

[coberst]

Craig

We were born smart enough but we weren’t born intellectually sophisticated enough to handle this high tech world we have invented.

What is the difference between “being smart” and “being sophisticated”? I would say that we can use the handyman and his tool box as a good analogy for comprehending this difference. The number and quality of the instruments in a handyman’s tool box is a measure of his smartness and his experience using those tools is a measure of his sophistication.

If a handyman has only a hammer then every job is a job that will get hammered on. If that handyman has a great tool box but has experience only with a hammer then that handyman will look for things that can be hammered into place.

My answer to the question “how do I become more intellectually sophisticated?” is “become a self-actualizing self-learner of disinterested knowledge.”

Most words have many definitions and thus it might be appropriate to identify the definition that I find suitable when trying to communicate the meaning of the word ‘sovereign’.

I will start with a definition of the word I found in my dictionary: sovereign--one who exercises supreme authority within a limited sphere. And add the words of Benjamin Franklin “In free governments the rulers are the servants and the people their superiors and sovereigns.”

As you show, the word “sovereign” has been argued vehemently throughout history. The other word that most seem to want to argue is the word ‘democracy’. But I am ‘bird hunting’ here; I do not want to go chasing every rabbit that jumps up.

I am perfectly willing to use any other word or even just use the phrase that Franklin uses. I know of no other word to use that means the same thing, perhaps you might have a more suitable word that I might use.

[questor]

Coberst, could you explain the difficulties we are having fuctioning with technology?

'' That is to say that democracy cannot function adequately in this high tech society we have created.'' Coberst

[coberst]

Originally Posted by questor

Coberst, could you explain the difficulties we are having fuctioning with technology?

'' That is to say that democracy cannot function adequately in this high tech society we have created.'' Coberst

What are some of the matters that are a result of our technology, which we must deal with sometime before we are swamped by the affect of the problem?

World population: We have more than 6.5 billion people in the world now and we are growing exponentially. We must some how stop this growth and I suspect our planet cannot support its present 6.5 billion that we have now.

Human destruction of the environment: Global warming is one obvious difficulty, destruction of the oceans, destruction of the forests throughout the world.

Depletion of our natural resources: We are consuming the planet and as the rest of the world increases their living standard to approach that of the United States we will consume the planet even faster.

Cost of health care is soaring as a result of both new technology and because of the aging of the present population.

Nuclear weapon proliferation throughout the world: Each nation is acting rationally in their desire to have a nuclear weapon and those nations with such weapons are acting rationally in the effort to prevent any other nation acquiring such a weapon.

The gap between the rich and the poor throughout the world is increasing. I suspect each increase in this gap is creating more discontent that leads to terrorism.

Terrorists will soon acquire a nuclear weapon and/or other WMD.

New technologies such as the Internet, TV, cell phones, etc. are making the population less and less sophisticated because of the appeal of the superficial exploitation of the titillations afforded by such technology.

[Turtle]

Originally Posted by coberst

...
New technologies such as the Internet, TV, cell phones, etc. are making the population less and less sophisticated because of the appeal of the superficial exploitation of the titillations afforded by such technology.

And yet, here you are on the internet. Ironic, ain't it. Tryin' to rub us out with titillation, aren't ya? I feel so...dirty & exploited. If & when democracy in the US fails, I'll have a ready food source and a new business making Soylent Green.

[questor]

Coberst, I agree that technology such as nuclear arms present an overpowering danger. So does overpopulation which is not so much a technology problem, but is an intelligence problem. I also agree that man will probably do himself in by war, famine or destruction of his environment. To me,this is a cognition problem and the
inability to rationally determine problems and act upon them in a timely fashion.

[coberst]

Originally Posted by questor

Coberst, I agree that technology such as nuclear arms present an overpowering danger. So does overpopulation which is not so much a technology problem, but is an intelligence problem. I also agree that man will probably do himself in by war, famine or destruction of his environment. To me,this is a cognition problem and the
inability to rationally determine problems and act upon them in a timely fashion.

Exactly my point. The population lacks the intellectual sophistication to comprehend the problems that our technology has helped us create. If we cannot recognize the problem in time to fashion a solution then we cannot survive. The financial crises is a good example.