Time does not exist

[Roberto]

@AG: about your question, yes, the clocks will be different. Just one correction: Bob would not be at the speed of light, because it is forbidden by relativity theory.

@Akira: if you're saying that time does not exist as much as a book, a table or ourselves, then I must agree with you. The problem here is: what's your definition of "to exist"? Because, if you say that something exist and something don't, there must be a way to discriminate it. If you simply say that nothing exists, it does not have any usefulness.

But I disagree with you concerning your other statements. Time can be measured (in clocks) an can be predicted (as we already discussed). And what in Quantum Mechanics says that time is only now? QM is not a theory concerning time, time in QM is just a parameter, it does not have the special status it has in Relativity.

Yes, in QM you will only have predictions about probabilities, but to say that you cannot predict anything is an error. You can indeed predict how probabilities evolve in time and a lot of bahaviours that can be measured in labs. QM is a highly tested theory and gives precise predictions. And when we are not in subatomic domains, classical mechanics give excellent predictions too. We build airplanes using classical physics, not QM probabilities.

When you say that theoretically nothing could escape from a black hole, it is fundamentally wrong. Hawking radiation is a theoretical discovery, not an experimental one. Hawking discovered the radiation reasoning about theoretical fundamentals and the Hawking radiation, as far as I know (someone correct me if I'm wrong, please), is yet an unmeasured phenomena. Anyway, the spectra of the radiation is well predicted theoretically.

Finally, the uncertainty principle does not say that we cannot measure any property of an object with wanted precision. In QM you can in principle measure any property with whatever precision you want, but the UP forbids you of measuring some properties simultaneously, for example, space and velocity. But if you measure them separately, the UP does not impose any limit on the precision. Indeed, in QM, there are sets of variables that can be meaured with any precision simultaneously and others that not, depending on the experiment.

[GAHD]

Originally posted by: Roberto
QM is a highly tested theory and gives precise predictions.

My one question on this comment is; If QM is so highly tested and precise:
A) Why is it still only a THEORY?
B) Why hasn't a valid quantum computer been created.

Next in line there is a small point on the Time Dilation topic originally posted.

If satellites suffer time dilation the ENTIRE time dilation theory self-destructs, at lest in logic.
Ex satellite is orbiting the Earth in Geo-sync. The satellite thus revolves around the earth at 3075 m/s speed. However, the satellite is actually moving at quite a few varying speeds; it is orbiting the Earth, which is orbiting the sun at roughly 66,600 miles/hour, which in turn is orbiting the center of our galaxy at whatever speed.
Before you shout "REFERANCE FRAMES!" let me finish.
The resulting time dilation, even assuming reference frames, would be doing quite a bit of yo-yoing. As it's overall velocity increases as it enters the part of it's orbit leading away from the sun, and decreases as it passes the next halfway point and 'falls' back to the side of it's orbit closer to the sun. The overall Equation causes the relevant velocity to nearly negate itself.

[Roberto]

Theory is just a technical name for a set of hypothesis and explanations and this name remains even after the set has been tested.

Quantum computers are a problem of technology and not a problem with QM.

I will repeat: there is no known experiment ever made that disagree with quantum mechanical predictions.

Concerning time dilation, it doesn´t matter if the velocity increases and decreases, the final effect is related to the length of the world line of the body which is being accelerated, in this case the sattelite. The body that suffers acceleration feels time passing slowly.

[I.D]

I think the discussion of "if time exists" is a very complex topic. Firstly its so hard to get to the core of the discussion instead of constantly going in cycles from one theory to another and this is mainly because there is never an absolute definition to anything and everything is relative. That is why "if time exists" can be looked at two ways or maybe even more...either in a physical sense or psychological. I believe that psychologically anything can exist but that is mainly because it is just our perception of what is happining to us physically. Physically time does not exist, yes it is measured, but what are we really measuring, isn't it just the decay of matter? This decay, is it not due to the influence of gravity ect. matter does not decay because of time, so really time is just a man made concept to explain the gradual decay of matter. So even if time does exists psychologically, it does not affect us.

Muon decay, illustrates the dilation of time in a moving object. This occurs in the decay of unstable elementary particles called muons. These particles are created high in the atmosphere by fast cosmic-ray particles arriving at the earth from space. Muons have a speed of 0.998c, their lifetime is 0.000002 sec, therefore they can only travel only 600m.However, they are created at altitudes more than ten times greater than this. If we use the Lorentz contraction formula we can see that in our reference frame they have traveled 9500m.And because in the muons frame of reference it only takes 600m to reach the ground and in our reference frame it seems like it has travelled 9500m to us it seems that its lifetime has been extended.Since Muons travel at such high speeds they are able to dilate there lifetime and/or contract the lenght for them to reach ground level, otherwise they wouldent be able to reach sea level at profusion. This proves time dilation. If u want it to be called time dilation, it is really decay dilation..since time is only man made concept to measure the gradual decay.

[ccazanave]

You are right Mr. Poet, time does not exist.
There is a great physicist who has shown that time does not exist only change exists. See

http://www.platonia.com/

Yours truly

Professor of Physics and Astronomy Claude Cazanave

[wavelength?]

Time does exist. If your traveling at the speed of light then time stops, it does this because you would actually be riding a wave length. Wave lengths travel at the speed of light which is the only way you could travel at the speed of light, by becoming a wave length.

I agree with I.D when he says that time is just the decay of matter. This is true because in cosmic terms we are almost motionless in space, and we are constantly being bombarded by many different wave lengths from all over the universe,(radiation) which causes decay of matter. if there were no wave lengths passing through us then there would be no time or decay of matter.

If your traveling at the speed of light does time really stop? no. Unless you can get away from all cosmic waves, which is impossable because they are everywhere.

Passage of time is just the passage of wave lengths.
How many are passing through you right now?

[zcrumb]

Time is a dimension. We travel through it just like we travel through space.
If you go to the atomic and sub atomic level we are moving through space and matter in a irreversible linear fashion just like time. I can walk from my room to another room and back, but the room is never exactly the same, the earth moves through space I will be located in a different position in space. On an atomic level atoms are always moving, just more slowly nothing ever retains its true form. Time never retains a true form to go back to. It is just a different dimension then height, width or length it has different properties. As for perception, perception of anything is in the eye of the beholder. Perception will always change in relativity to your position in any given dimension.
Measurement, you cannot measure any dimension without a tool, take away the measurement tool and it becomes a perception again. Sure you cannot "see" time but you cannot see anything outside of a certain light wave bandwidth. Without time everything would exist in every possible location at the same moment. All movement would be instantaneous.

[burrows733]

Hi AG
I hear what you are saying but time, just is. Its not here, there or anywhere. It's a bit like a 3 D sculpture idea in your head not physically existing, and not there until you make it so.
The conventional way time has always been understood is that it follows in linear format like one step following another.
Let's assume the concept of time as just an idea in your head, and as a concept alone, it exists. Work with me here AG. Now assuming it exists but in a slightly different way. A bit like if you consider that time and I mean all the time that has ever existed past, present and future was represented by a bucket of water. Now with a hypothetical probe i.e. your finger, put it into the water now at what point in linear time are you, past present or future? Linear time makes no sense but is the perceived conventional way of dealing with it.
To properly deal with time you have to use a different approach or concept. Let's assume you are right and time does not exist in our perceived awareness of our world around us. But time as an idea does exist as an idea in our head. All be it that we can't prove it, in our senses orientated sphere of existence. So if it exists as an idea in our head what has caused this "idea" to come into being?
Well that bit of crinkly grey stuff between our ears is the engine that pulled this idea from its area of being/existence. This realm/area of being that Mr. Einstein eluded to in his work is the 4th dimension, which most people can't understand, or they think belongs in the realm of science fiction. But in actual fact they are moving between the 4th and the 3rd all the time (no pun intended) although they haven't a clue they are doing so.
What I'm actually doing now by typing this email and thinking, this is within the edges, how ever lightly, of the 4th dimension, working out a mathematical sum/computation however small is an abstract thought and within the 4th dimension. And the deeper into the mathematical problem you get you are just getting further into the 4th.
As for sleeping have you ever considered how mixed up and chaotic your dreams are. And it’s usually the underlining feeling you perceive that dominates the dream and it’s what you remember when you wake, more than anything else. Well if you are randomly moving about in time (via the 4th dimension) past events and future events are all in there (like the bucket of water) and when you wake fragments of these thoughts linger (which is exactly what 4th dimension reality is all about. Thoughts.) Remnants of these thoughts/dreams/feelings still linger in the consciousness of the 3 D physical world. This is what our physical bodily senses try to come to grips and deal with, and that is why you get the feeling you have been in this or that situation before. Although you know you haven't and never where.
Let's sum up now. If your brain is a mode of moving between 3rd and 4th dimensions and Einstein as most will admit was quite a savvy chap, tells us that the 4th exists and all the tools we use in our 3rd dimension, are to the 4th dimension what a sledge hammer is to brain surgery.(not really much good)
So the means of using this 4th dimension I think has already been given by nature to us all. It is generally believed that we (human beings) only use 10% or is that 20% of our brain. What is the other 80-90% used for? I think, and bearing in mind this is only my opinion, I think it’s an unopened 4th dimension tool chest with unheard of 4th dimension gadgetry for us to use. But like a chimp with a 4 stroke car engine strobe timing lamp. Unless he has a rudimentary education and the intelligence to figure out that it is used as a means to an end.(and what is this end) All he will do is crack nuts with it.
In conclusion for an idea to have 3D form and exist on a table top as you think about it. That is impossible. And for the table to have 4D form and physically exist in your mind (not brain). That is impossible.

[Tormod]

So the means of using this 4th dimension I think has already been given by nature to us all. It is generally believed that we (human beings) only use 10% or is that 20% of our brain.

This is a myth and has no basis in reality.

Here is an entertaining page on the 10% subject:
http://faculty.washington.edu/chudler/tenper.html

Tormod

[burrows733]

Hi Tormod,

I didn't say the idea was right but I didn’t say it was wrong either it’s just my opinion. I used to have a 2.5 litre MGB sports car and I used the whole engine (read brain)when I took it out and all the parts went through the moving motions but rarely did I open it up and use it all to its full potential.(read brain again)
If you weren’t taught the process of how to read would you have naturally picked it up? No. Unless someone can teach us how to exploit our brain to it’s full potential. We as a species are very unlikely to advance further than the caveman type mentality that binds us to our evolutionary path with all the other animals.
To change tracks a little. Indigenous native Brazilians who have been cut off in the remotess parts of the Brazilian jungle and have never had contact with the west or their ideas. Who, when confronted with, so called "civilization", have absolutely no phrase in their language for our concept of tomorrow or next week it just does not exist. When near 6pm in the evening some of the westeners let it be know via the native interpreters that the chief was welcome to come to have a meal with them shortly. The chief arrived in full cerimonial dress two days later very early at 5am for what westeners would call a very early breakfast expecting a huge meal. The word time had no meaning to him. A short while to him was exactly what he did, and a long time would probably have been 6or 7 years or to the next full moon, who knows
But on the other hand the world of dreams, deep contemplative thought and this ability to travel to different geographical location and view the future while in these deep 4 D states/sleep/trance what ever you want to call it. Is to us, a bizarre notion of seeing into the future via our dreams?
OK I hear you say this guy is in cloud Cuckoo land, well maybe I am. But I rather like the idea that I might be different and right maybe. And if I can see some kind of logic to my train of thought who in so called learned authority has the dead fire certain knowledge to say I‘m absolutely wrong.
If I am so widely off the mark on this, why did the U.S. government spend untold multiple millions of tax payer’s dollars at the height of the cold war on exactly this concept? It was called “Remote Viewing”. By all accounts it was very successful to, else wise; they the CIA would never have been able to get funding for year after year of government money.
If you cut yourself and the cut opens up and starts too really bleed and you squeeze it together to stop it and cover it up with your other hand. And say, oh no that didn’t happen and because you can’t see it, and you don’t want it to be true, it doesn’t mean it isn’t true. It’s still cut and still there. You have to accept it deal with it and carry on and do something about it. Now while I know I am probably not correct here in a lot of what I say, but it does bear some thought. But when things start to get really complicated I tend to try to find my own logical way through the theoretical maze. In a way that makes sense to me so that I can move on and forward. This is my kiss principle.(keep it simple stupid) It may not be right but it works for me.
I was told once by a drinking buddy I had multiple personalities. I got worried and went to the doctor and got a clean bill of health and we’re all right now.
Geoff

PS
I like this forum it has some very interesting ideas. I especially like the way everyone can air their thoughts and points of view in a frank and open manner without a total disrespect from other forum users. Even though I know some of my ideas are way out there on the limb.