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Old 01-07-2005   #11 (permalink)
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Re: twice of the speed of light???

Quote:
Originally Posted by maddog
Information can now pass from one photon to the other instantaneously (no time).
I thought information could not pass, only that when one of the particles is affected, it also happens to the other. I am not aware of any experiments where actual information has been passed. This would be a breakthrough in communication because it would mean FTL communication over vast distances.


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Old 01-08-2005   #12 (permalink)
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Re: twice of the speed of light???

It's my understanding that when the entanglement occurs, the two particles are forever in sync so if one is observed, the condition of the other can be determined. The state of any particle cannot be deliberately altered. Now, my question is: how and why would the state of a particle change?


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Old 01-08-2005   #13 (permalink)
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Re: twice of the speed of light???

If you alter the state of one particle in an entangled pair the other alters also. Now, here is the crux. By seperation distance these two particles are generally seen as requiring a certain amount of time for information from one to be shared with the other. Yet, from our present experiments if you alter one particle the other changes in an instant far faster than a normal light path signal or imformation exchange could take place. The quantum information being exchanged is that about the change itself. But, here is where this path rather breaks down as far as conventional information exchange goes. To actually measure the information exchanged requires an error correction or measurment process that is limited to C. So even if you could send inforation over an entangled path in general you are still required to prove that information was exchanged correctly over a normal light speed limited path. Thus almost any way to use this path is no better off than using a normal light speed limited path unless its quantum information like spin, etc that is being exchanged.
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Old 01-08-2005   #14 (permalink)
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Re: twice of the speed of light???

Quote:
Originally Posted by paultrr
.. in an entangled pair.. To actually measure the information exchanged requires a ... measurment process that is limited to C. So even if you could send inforation over an entangled path in general you are still required to prove that ...
What legislation requires me to "prove it" ?? did some judge issue a "show cause" order or somethin'?
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Old 01-09-2005   #15 (permalink)
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Re: twice of the speed of light???

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Originally Posted by paultrr
If you alter the state of one particle in an entangled pair the other alters also..
My question is how does one deliverately alter the state of a particle? It's my understanding that so far we have been able to observe various states (spin or charge) of a particle but that's about it.


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Old 01-09-2005   #16 (permalink)
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Re: twice of the speed of light???

http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/qt-entangle/#1
This website seems to sum up quantum entanglement farily well along with provide some examples of past experiments using entaglement. one mention describes how "David Deutsch first showed how to exploit quantum entanglement to perform a computational task that is impossible for a classical computer."
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Old 01-10-2005   #17 (permalink)
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Re: twice of the speed of light???

Excellent. So constructing a NOT-gate allows one to deliberately change the characteristics of a particle going through. But is that a real process or just theory? Anyone?


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Old 03-07-2005   #18 (permalink)
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Re: twice of the speed of light???

Hi I have a couple of questions about this topic :

If gravity is the atraction of matter to other matter then what is gravitational lensing(light appantly not being matter) ???

Shouldn't all particals be matter??

If time slows the faster you move then do hot objects exprence time slower then cold objects?
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Old 03-07-2005   #19 (permalink)
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Re: twice of the speed of light???

Quote:
Originally Posted by hefner
What legislation requires me to "prove it" ?? did some judge issue a "show cause" order or somethin'?
When an experiment is performed there are checks done to show weither something has transpired or not. Even with say quantum computers one requires error checking which is even done on normal computers. The path used to check for error is a C limited one. One could in theory send some information like spin change via entanglement and just assume the message was transfered. But without checking that such has taken place there is no way to really show such has. Its not a law in the classical sence. Just a requirement of establishing an event actually took place or that certain information was actually transfered correctly. For this type of error checking one is limited to sending the information used to check for error via C limited means and verifying such by C limited means. The end result is that due to this real information always remains C limited.

There has been some tests conducted to see wither one could beat C as far as information transfer goes using entanglement. While changes in one entangled particle to another do seem to transfer far faster than C as far as demonstrating such information is really transfered one always gets stuck using a C limited path to verify such. The end result is one cannot send a non-quantum message FTL via such methods. The problem is would one want to send a message and end up with the receiver getting a message different from the one you sent. Without the error checking method that's exactly what happens according to our best experiments at present.
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Old 03-07-2005   #20 (permalink)
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Re: twice of the speed of light???

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Originally Posted by lindagarrette
My question is how does one deliverately alter the state of a particle? It's my understanding that so far we have been able to observe various states (spin or charge) of a particle but that's about it.
We've been able to change spin on particles for sometime. I would suggest reading up on how entanglement works for an answer to that. We can do more than observe.

Spin is the internal angular momentum of the particle. It is assumed that the total angular momentum before the emission process is 0. Because of law of conservation of angular momentum it has to remain 0 if there is no exchange of angular momentum with environment. Lets assume that we conduct a spin measurement on particle A at any axis of choice. Spin is quantized. It can have only discrete values. The only values we can obtain for a spin ˝ particle at a given axis are two possible orientations of spin opposite to each other along the choosen axis . Lets call them spin up and spin down. Prior to the measurement the spins of both particles are unknown. Lets assume that we find particle A in a spin up state. What is the consequence Of this measurement on spin of the particle B? If the angular momentum should be conserved , then the particle B should immediately undergo to a spin down state so that the vector sum of the spins remains 0, If we hadn’t done the measurement on particle A we would have both possibilities of spin up and spin down open also for particle B . But since we have measured spin of the particle A we know without doing the measurement on particle B that particle B must be in a spin down state. Thus the measurement on particle A immediately influences the outcome of the measurement that is conducted on particle B however far apart the particles A and B are from each other. May we consider the wave function itself as something physically real field or a probability wave, the situations after both measurements is certainly physically real since macroscopic measurement devices have changed their states. Thus correlation between the outcomes of measurements carried out at particle A and particle B shows that one cannot avoid but to accept that physical event at some location influences immediately the physical reality at some very distant location.

This consequence of the entanglement between two distant particles was until seventies only a theoretical issue. It was by Aspects experiments when the world realized that entanglement of distant photons is a fact(1). This was confirmed in later experiments(2).

The outcomes of two distant measurements are correlated , the correlation becomes apparent only if one can compare BOTH results. Each measurement itself is random. That is if one carries out 1000 measurements one sees a random distribution of outcomes for both particle A and particle B if evaluated independently. So no information is transferred from A to B and special relativity is not violated. The information can be obtained only if the outcomes are compared later by normal means. This has always been the assumption as far as proving something out. However, Relativity doesn’t concern itself with something so subtle like "information" in its terminology. In truth it is the energy/matter transport velocity or the velocity for influencing distant events each other what relativity limits. This misconception dates back to the times when it was discovered that the phase velocity of electromagnetic waves is exceeds light velocity c in a dispersive medium. Calculation and experience showed however that the group velocity namely the velocity with which a electromagnetic wave packet propagates is always less then c . Since electromagnetic waves are mainly used in signal transfer by modulations, this fact was expressed in the following way “although phase velocity can exceed light velocity the signal/information transfer velocity is always less then c”.

The Copenhagen interpretation, assumes the wave function is not a real physical entity but only a mathematical tool to predict the probability of a particular outcome in a measurement , nothing is physically transportat faster then light(3). But that is only one actual interpretation. If one assumes the wave function is real then one is left with a certain variety of information being transfered FTL. Roger Penrose has made the statement,

Although EPR-type experiments do not , in the ordinary sense of sending messages, conflict with causality of relativity , there is a definite conflict with the spirit of relativity in our picture of physical reality(4).

I happen to be one of those who agree and also tend to accept that the wavefunction is far more that a mathematical tool. I suspect there is a way to transfer information via this means. But at the current time our ability is simply too limited to do such. I also suspect that nature uses this type of path all the time and because of our inability to measure such paths we only get part of the picture. I think the mechanism of such involves an external frame of reference where the local velocity of light in that medium is different from ours. Such an external frame of reference would not actually violate relativity at all. And interesting enough this type of dual frames of reference has been showing up in articles related to brane theory, DSR, etc for sometime now. I have a couple of articles on one such model myself on the Cern server.





References

1.) Aspect 1982
2.) Chiao 1993 on the last page
3.) Stenger 1995 p.140
4.) Penrose 1989, p.370

Last edited by paultrr; 03-07-2005 at 03:24 AM..
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