Intelligence vs consciousness

[Uncle Martin]

Can intelligence exist without consciousness? Vice versa? Are they linked?


This topic seems as ill defined and understood as space and time. Any thoughts on the subject?

[Freethinker]

Your post seems to cover a variety of issues.

intelligence exist without consciousness

Sounds like an Artificial Intelligence question. Where is the line between a computer's ability to process and our ability to "think"? A computer can be programmed with more info. It can have an expert system designed that can provide a resultant answer more consistantly than most people. But someone has to be the model, develop the parameters of the data base.

Once done though, it can process based on logical, fuzzy logic even, parameters. It can "learn" and correct for mistakes.

There are also artificial intellegence programs that show natural evolution. You might find the research of my old collegues quite interesting. Self writing code, Smaller virus version of the code writing itself. It ultimate led to reproduction by natural selection ALL BY ITSELF!

Another very sinmple program, with two rules, replicates cellular evolution .

All at
http://xxx.infidels.org/~meta/getalife/index.html

[Uncle Martin]

[quote]
Originally posted by: Freethinker


"There are also artificial intellegence programs that show natural evolution. You might find the research of my old collegues quite interesting. Self writing code, Smaller virus version of the code writing itself. It ultimate led to reproduction by natural selection ALL BY ITSELF!"



That seems to fit the definition of "Life". The human bias leads most to consider things like creativity, imagination, emotion, as integral components of intelligence. I wonder if these are necessary. Is it possible to reason without creativity? Can a program understand an abstract concept, having no imagination? AI is an interesting subject. I wonder , what are the limits?

[Uncle Martin]

Whether artificial or biological I can't conceptualize intelligence existing without consciousness. Or consciousness without intelligence. It seems to me that they are strongly linked. Imagine if you can, intelligence without consciousness. It would be meaningless. Although computers are impressive at storing and retrieving information, they are not yet intelligent. They may be someday, when they can also be conscious, but they are not now. Biologically I can't think of any examples of non-intelligent life. I think all life is intelligent and conscious to some extent.

Obviously there are different levels of intelligence, consciousness, man-dog-tree-bacteria. Self awareness is our level of consciousness but is not required for consciousness to exist. Different levels of consciousness and consciousness without intelligence are difficult to imagine. Plants are conscious at some level, they react to their environment. They will seek sunlight, this looks to be intelligent. Watch a venus flytrap, this is not non-intelligent action. An entity that is unconscious cannot perform the actions of a plant.

Consciousness and intelligence separately would be as meaningless as separating space and time. Consider it, I think we may be using two words for one phenomenon

[Tormod]

Well, I think you answer your own question pretty well.

However, do you think there could be awareness without consciousness?

Tormod

[Tormod]

Sorry, I posted my post before I was finished...too quick there.

Some of the things you mention, like the venus flytrap, and reaction to environment in general - they could be signs of consciousness, yes. Or they could simply be reflexes. I don't think reflexes require intelligence, nor do they require consciousness or even awareness. However, intelligence coupled with reflexes make an organism able to interpret the results of events (like pain) and allows it to learn. So there would be an evolutionary advantage to have intelligence, but I don't see it as a prequisite.

Tormod

[Uncle Martin]

Originally posted by: Tormod
Well, I think you answer your own question pretty well.



However, do you think there could be awareness without consciousness?



Tormod

I've been knocked unconscious once or twice(as some may have already guessed) and can say for sure I had no awareness at the time. I think awareness and self awareness are upper levels of consciousness.

[Uncle Martin]

Originally posted by: Tormod
Sorry, I posted my post before I was finished...too quick there.



Some of the things you mention, like the venus flytrap, and reaction to environment in general - they could be signs of consciousness, yes. Or they could simply be reflexes. I don't think reflexes require intelligence, nor do they require consciousness or even awareness. However, intelligence coupled with reflexes make an organism able to interpret the results of events (like pain) and allows it to learn. So there would be an evolutionary advantage to have intelligence, but I don't see it as a prequisite.



Tormod

To my knowledge reflexes are a response to an interpreted signal sent via a central nervous system. I've read that many plants have a rudimentary nervous system. Since nerve cells are also responsible for thought processes(interpretation) I propose reflexive reactions do require an intelligent cause. Most reflexive responses stop in brain dead mammals, that surely indicates an intelligence/conscious requirement. I have done a bit of research regarding plants and the "experts" seem divided. I will contemplate the issue before I commit to either. All very good points to ponder.

Where are all the botanist/ biologists?