Cure Disease, save lives/ Or flush the toilet (Stem Cells)

[Aki]

Originally posted by: GAHD
ova(ovum? too tired to check)

ova (singular); ovum (plurial)

[Freethinker]

Originally posted by: GAHD

First off, contrary to what must have been taught in the archaic age when you went to school, a sentence ending in '?' is a question. I have not posed a question in this thread, but made a statement.

Nor from what I was taught in my "archaic age when (I) went to school" did we learn to spell "allready" with two "l"'s.

But bringing these minor issues up does not enhance the flow of the discussion. It is just a simplistic ad homenum based attempt to avoid addressing the specific issue. Which you also fail to do in the rest of your reply. The rest of the ad homenums are deleted to conserve space.

[Freethinker]

Originally posted by: Aki
Why are they creating more embryos than what they need? If they're going to flush the extras down the toilet, then just don't make that many of them.

First so what? So what if they create more fertilized embryo's than one at a time? Current science does not guarantee a 100% success rate with each and every embryo. The alternative would be an operation each and every time to remove a single egg, fertilize it and hope it succeeds. If not, start the entire medical operation process over and over and over. Instead they harvest a smal qty of eggs and fertilize them all, knowing that many will not make it and the qty is needed for backup.

In the natural process, eggs are primarily wasted each and every month. Even naturally fertilized eggs suffer over 65% failure rate. They do not come full term. By the very nature of procreation there is significant waste in the process.

Why not use what nature is going to waste anyway and get the tremendeous benefits that Embryonic Stem Cell research is indicating?

[GAHD]

Originally posted by: Freethinker

Nor from what I was taught in my "archaic age when (I) went to school" did we learn to spell "allready" with two "l"'s.

But bringing these minor issues up does not enhance the flow of the discussion. It is just a simplistic ad homenum based attempt to avoid addressing the specific issue. Which you also fail to do in the rest of your reply. The rest of the ad homenums are deleted to conserve space.

Ok, so you delete your part of the quote, I wonder why? Also you appear to be playing Shakespear and creating words, care to provide something www.m-w.com or another online dictionary can define? Still, I persist that I did not pose a question in that original statement. Now quit dismissing my actual comments with your side tracking.

YOU have failed to respond to my addition other than to attempt your usual crotchety bullshit.

Why not use what nature is going to waste anyway and get the tremendeous benefits that Embryonic Stem Cell research is indicating?

Though not directed at myself, this question ties directly in with my previous statement, which being the actual 'meat' of my post, you of course decided to delete rather than respond to. Allow me to refresh you mind, I have no qualms about 'wasting space';

You want an effort made, purchase some and send them to Mexico where there aren't laws preventing cloning and embryonic research. If you feel particularly ambitious, you could always go donate the necessary material to a lab; I'm sure they'd love to get a sample of such a 'special' individual.

You want funding for those projects? Get your religious brethren to join you in making monthly donations to a place you think could use the money; you'd be surprised how far private funding goes.

Why no responce, your 'happy humanist' friends have vices for wallets or are you simply all talk and no walk like so many others?

[sanctus]

First time I speak as a moderator:

Freethinker and Gahd: where is the use of saying your opinion by almost (I enphatize almost) insulting the other?

[Freethinker]

Originally posted by: sanctus
Freethinker and Gahd: where is the use of saying your opinion by almost (I enphatize almost) insulting the other?

Good question. I was wondering the same thing.

Notice, I started this thread, GAHD replied. No complications in either. I then posted a reply also lacking ANY anomosity or attacks. Merely asking if the two are not seperate issues.

3 posts, not problems....

Then GAHD attacked.

So if you want to know WHY the thread turned sour, ask the person that did it.

[sanctus]

Now as a poster:

there are actually two main question discussed here, as I see it.

1) Should we produce stem cells of embryos? and why?

2) What do we do with the ones we've got?


My answers:

1) No, for what I know there already enough cells to do enough research to prove that there is really an interest or none in this sector.
If yes, I bekieve that there should be produced, because:
a) I don't think that just a "omnipotent cell" can feel pain
b) it's better to do experiments on human cells than on animals who suffer pain (I think I'll start a thread on this)!

2) Use them for research. The reason for people with "ethical problems" is: at least so that part of human life is sacrified for saving other lifes, instead of being sacrified for nothing.



A part from this, Gahd I do not agree that the research should be made in Mexico (or somewhere else, nothing against Mexico), the reaon is very simple: let's suppose they find something then all the world will want to have this knowledge and everybody is happy; let's suppose they find that there is nothing to find, then all the world will blame them forgetting that they also wanted to do that research (actually were already starting to do it) before the ethicists came up. In other words you want something then do it yourself, instead of waiting that others do it and then you can blame them for if it doesn't work, this would be a bit FAKE!!!

[sanctus]

Originally posted by: Freethinker

Good question. I was wondering the same thing.

Notice, I started this thread, GAHD replied. No complications in either. I then posted a reply also lacking ANY anomosity or attacks. Merely asking if the two are not seperate issues.

3 posts, not problems....

Then GAHD attacked.

So if you want to know WHY the thread turned sour, ask the person that did it.

I guess he felt attacked by your post (even if I agree with you saying that you just answered), then you countre-attacked:

usual schema nobody started.
But just let's stop it here

[GAHD]

Odd I didn't think my 2nd post was an attack rather than a correction with some sarcastic wit thrown in(there _is_ a wink there).

Mexico was submitted because of their laws(or lack thereof) in the feild of human reserch. It has nothing to do with blame, but everything to do with current suitability. I suppose an off-shore oil rig would work too, but that leaves power and supply problems best left to the drillers.

[Freethinker]

Originally posted by: sanctus
Now as a poster:

there are actually two main question discussed here, as I see it.

1) Should we produce stem cells of embryos? and why?

1) No, for what I know there already enough cells to do enough research to prove that there is really an interest or none in this sector.

There are NOT enough of those original handful of cells. Lying as usual, Dubya claimed there were 60 original lines. But we now KNOW that there are only about 12 that are usable. And much of the questions we need to answer deal with the process of making them, which we can't do with existing lines. Additionally the cost of one shipment is prohibitively expensive because of the extremely low number. And those lines that exist may have had some contamination based on errors because of these being the first we ever did.

Bottom line, we can not have a successful ESC research program if stuck with only the small number of lines in existence.

Meanwhile, FLUSH........ There goes MORE additional embryo's being flushed rather than used to help humanity.

And all because of religious ignorance!

A part from this, Gahd I do not agree that the research should be made in Mexico

I am sure this was just more of his attack against me. I ignored the rest of his rant.