Seeker's Questions: The World Before Closed Eyes

[saidevo]

When I close my eyes, initially I see the afterimages of what my eyes
were seeing. Then it becomes darker and I see cloudy patterns that
form, expand (or contract) and then disappear, to be followed by
another, much like the waves formed on a still water surface when a
stone is dropped.

The 'world' that my closed eyes look at is usually violet in color,
and the clouds that form and disappear, are indigo in color.

As my mind gets more and more still, I can see real-world shapes
--of houses, humans, anything I am familiar with--that quickly
form and pass into other shapes. I am physically conscious (and not
sleeping) while I watch these images. After sometime, I find that
the slightest thought currents disturb the shapes, but I guess that
with sufficient practice I might be able to control and create shapes
by thought.

Technically, I have simply closed my eyes, so my eyes should be
looking at the inner side of my eyelids. I read somewhere that
these shapes and images are random reflections of residual light
particles inside the eyelids, but I am not prepared to buy this
theory, because I see a whole world before my closed eyes, which
to some extent I can control.

Since I have not yet started sleeping, I know that these 'waves'
are not the alpha or beta waves of REM or deep sleep. Those waves
come only after I fall asleep.

What are the shapes and images that I see? Of what stuff they are
made? Can this thing be explained in a purely physical and convincing
way by Science?

I think that this can be explained theosophically, but I would first
like to hear readers' views, scientific or otherwise on this
subject.

Regards,
saidevo

[Southtown]

Originally Posted by saidevo

When I close my eyes, initially I see the afterimages of what my eyes
were seeing.

The eyes are very tricky sunza bitches. I would imagine the after images are just receptor memory, or maybe actual memory since we actually "see" with our brains, only partially assisted by the eyeballs. Check these out:

[kazbadan]

saidevo, your "problem" its very interesiting indeed. The things that you see, do they match with your reality? For example, you close your eyes and then you see, lets say, the bed that it was in front of you before you close the eyes? Or do you see other things? DO you see places that do not exist or things that you know?

More important, do you feel sleepy? Relaxed? How its your mind state before, during and after the experience?

Now, my ideas about your problem. First, i have a similar problem but it will occur on some occasions when i am very,very sleepy. Only then i will see such images. In my case they are the beggining of the dreams. SInce they occur while i am in a transition state between sleep and awakeness, they are called hypnagogic hallucinations. Generally you have shure thats an hallucination when you open your eyes and you still see them.

Anyway, the most strange thing with me, that i cannot explain, its that actualy, in some occasions, i can through eyelids! I know that i can be flamed but i dont care, its something that happens. MAybe there is a rational explanation for that. For example, at some days agor we went into into a trip for hollydays. We were (me and my firends) in a car (i was not the driver) and then i fall asleep.

My sleep was deep and different because i was in a transition state. As usual, i started to have the typical dreams/hallucinations. I started to see the cars, the houses, the road, etc, but just in a dream state. Then i realised "Oh, i am sleeping!" and i opened the eyes. The most amazing thing was that the images on my "dream", the cars, the houses, the road we were crossing (and i never saw that road before) were exactly the same!

Possibly there is an explanation here related with memory and quick feedback or something like, anyway, its funny when these kind of things occur.

[saidevo]

This question was posted in a couple of Theosophical forums, which
elicited the following replies:

The world before closed eyes appears as one or more of the following:

1. Changing patterns and colors, as in a kaleidoscope. Such patterns
can be simulated by closing the eyes and vigorously rubbing the
eyeballs.

2. Rings of clouds/waves formed out of deep darkness. Like the waves
formed in water when a small stone is dropped, these clouds/waves
expand outwards and disappear. They are usually irregular--not
circular--in shape.

3. Shapes formed out of the darkness. These are forms of any object:
faces, places, articles or other things. Vague at first, these
soon materialize on the dark space and disappear instantaneously
or when a thought strikes. The shapes linger if they are just
looked at, without thinking about them.

4. Sometimes a person undergoing such visions may be able to see
the physical world through the closed eyelids. To the sleeping
person, the sights would appear as episodes in a dream, whereas
they happen actually to the person in the physical world.

The suggested spiritual explanations are:
1. This is a level of clairvoyance.

2. There are visions of reflections from the 'Seven Harmonies'
that are mapped to the seven cavities of the brain.
-- H.P. Blavatsky

3. Why separate life from death, or sleep from dream? Waking or
sleeping is one form of dreaming, as living is one form of dying.

The following scientific explanations have been posted in this forum:

1. These are just receptor memory formed in the brain the seen
through the eyes.

2. These are hypnagogic hallucinations formed in the transition
state between wakefulness and sleep.

My own impressions:
-----------------------
I think the answer lies in the invisible astral and mental planes (worlds)
which are beyond the reach of Science, because Science as of now
does not prefer a holistic investigation. However, there are things that
Science can't perceive, but they are there all the same. This is not to
discredit the achievements of Science, but only to say that Science has
to be a bit 'broad-minded'. After all the scientific researches are only
to give a better living for mankind, which need not necessarily be
only physical.

1. I think the darkness and clouds/waves are the elemental essence
of the astral world (astral plane) in action. We are not able to
see this action with open eyes, even though it is there, because of
the veil formed by the sunlight or other artificial physical light
on the atmosphere around us. Since this is living elemental essence,
we do see them take cloudy/wavy forms, expand and disappear, with
more such clouds/waves following.

2. The concrete forms such as faces, places, etc. are formed out of
the elemental essence by the thought currents of the mental world.
They are formed at the lower mental plane and descend to the astral,
taking forms out of the astral elemental essence. They disappear
or dissolve when consciousness narrows down to single, specific
thoughts.
-------

Seeing Etheric Matter
------------------------
It is reported that as humanity evolves, most people also see
etheric matter of the physical world with naked eyes in broad
daylight. How this matter appears is explained below:

"Lot of people sees them as strands of matter generally
transparent, or as streams of purple or grey smoke floating
in the air. They generally fall to the ground or move in the
direction of the gaze when the eyes are moving. .

"Etheric matter is seen as very dynamic and constantly changing
strands and one can see these as separate strands or as clumps of
strands like in a brush but constantly changing its position and
shape. They may also appear as marbles or as strings of beads.
They have a tendency to move downwards because of the gravity
or move with your gaze when you fix your gaze on it. ."

Do you see such strands or clumps or marbles of highly dynamic
matter that move as you move your eyes? I see them all the time.
Initially I thought that something like a strand of hair got
stuck to the inside of my eyes, but now I know. And I also know
that some of the people around me do see them.

For more details on this subject, please visit:
http://www.einterface.net/gamini/etheric.html

Evidences of the great Truths are strewn all around us.
In things and events that pass by our everyday life.
If only we care to look around and think over...

Regards,
saidevo

[CraigD]

What I find interesting about the patterns that I see with eyes closed is that they are considerably less vivid and interesting for me now, at age 45, than they were when I first made note of them around age 6.

I distinctly recall seeing sharp violet pools, irregularly circular in shape, at the end of intricate, fractal-like tunnels, and a strong feeling of motion down those tunnels, that could amuse me for periods approaching hours, perceptions so fascinating I attempted to capture them on paper with the various art tools available to me at the time.

Now, what I see is mostly black/grey, sharp-edged and rectangular, with small, rapidly appearing and disappearing white “static” in the center. The afterimage of what I was seeing before closing my eyes is more persistent, its shape being discernable for as long as 20 seconds after closing my eyes. I must shield my eyes with my hands, as small amounts of external light leaking through my closed eyelids form vague reddish images that suppress these more subtle images.

I’ve never, in more than a fanciful way, thought that my eyes-closed explorations might be showing me real scapes. Years ago, I read an interesting academic paper (someone’s doctoral thesis, I recollect), that categorized the various patterns one can perceive when one stares at a flat, evenly illuminated surface, such as a ceiling or wall, and sought to relate them to the neuroanatomy of the retena. I’ve not been able to find the paper online, but it seems like the one described in the Pittsburg Post-Gazette article “Pitt mathematician tracks origin of hallucinations”. This article speaks to eyes-closed patterns, which it terms “pressure phosphenes”.

[Southtown]

Originally Posted by saidevo

"Etheric matter is seen as very dynamic and constantly changing strands and one can see these as separate strands or as clumps of strands like in a brush but constantly changing its position and shape. They may also appear as marbles or as strings of beads. They have a tendency to move downwards because of the gravity or move with your gaze when you fix your gaze on it."

I did on my first acid trip in the 9th grade, seriously. Exactly as you describe. Not since, though. But what makes you think it's a type of matter and not visual anomalies? We do all use the same physiology to perceive light, do we not?

Originally Posted by saidevo

However, there are things that Science can't perceive, but they are there all the same. This is not to discredit the achievements of Science, but only to say that Science has to be a bit 'broad-minded'. After all the scientific researches are only to give a better living for mankind, which need not necessarily be only physical.

Science is exactly what is should be. Though, it is indeed limited. Ventures of thought outside of provability belong to philosophy and theology. I think you're referring to something I've believed for aeons is that people assume truth before they test it and become specifically interested in validating preconception, even to the extent of bending the rules. We all know that here, the problem isn't science, but people.

P.S. No need for to hit "ENTER" at the end of typing a line. The text boxes will auto-wrap for you.

[saidevo]

Originally Posted by Southtown

But what makes you think it's a type of matter and not visual anomalies? We do all use the same physiology to perceive light, do we not?

Your question can also be reversed: what makes you think they are visual anomalies
and not a type of matter? Terming it as visual anomaly doesn't explain anything.

Anyway, the description about seeing etheric matter is not mine. I have only reported
what is found on the link I have given.

But I do feel that it is not a visual anamoly. The physical constitution of man is perfect
with most normal people. Only the perceptions differ. Frankly speaking, I do not know
if what I see as strands of matter is etheric matter, because I wonder that if I can see
etheric matter, why can't I see the air molecules whichare grosser? It's for Science to
research it and explain in a convincing way.

Originally Posted by Southtown

We all know that here, the problem isn't science, but people.

I don't think that belief in truths that can't be proved by physical means can termed
as a problem with people. The real problem is that Science chooses to ignores such
truths (though they are global in many cases) and brands them as philosophical,
paranormal, and so on. Maybe that Science has to be that way--remaining always
a physical science.

You know one thing? Science discovered quarks 70 years after their existance was
proved using clairvoyance by Annie Besant and Leadbeater. It is ironic that Science
had to spend thousands of dollars and overthree scores years to arrive at the truth
that was accurately documented earlier by 'perception'. (Source: The Project
Gutenberg eBook, Occult Chemistry, by Annie Besant and Charles W. Leadbeater,
downloadable at: http://www.gutenberg.net/).

There are indications that scientists have started making use of the findings of Theosophy.
Notable among them is Dr. Stephen M. Phillips, who is said to be currently researching in
colloboration with a revered Buddhist occultist in Canada about the superstring structure
of the electron. Dr. E.Lester Smith and Dr. Ronald Cowen are two otherscientists who are
guided by Theosophy in their researches.

Regards,
saidevo

[CraigD]

Originally Posted by saidevo

.. Science discovered quarks 70 years after their existance was proved using clairvoyance by Annie Besant and Leadbeater. It is ironic that Science had to spend thousands of dollars and overthree scores years to arrive at the truth that was accurately documented earlier by 'perception'. (Source: The Project Gutenberg eBook, Occult Chemistry, by Annie Besant and Charles W. Leadbeater ...

Where in Occult Chemestry is the description of quarks you note? The closest passage I'm able to find is "But now with the atom of hydrogen dissected, so to speak, and found to consist of 18 somethings", but this description is a poor match of Particle Physics’s description of the hydrogen atom, in which there are 4 fermions: 1 down quark, 2 up quarks, and 1 (much less massive) electron. Also, Particle Physics allows quarks to exist in fermions only in threes, but Occult Chemestry states that “ultimate/minor/etheric atoms” may exist in “bodies” in twos, threes, fours, and more.

Occult Chemestry seem to me to have correctly concluded that nucleons (protons and neutrons) are built of smaller particles, but not predicted the correct number (3), or even that there is a single number. I can’t agree that Besant and Leadbeater “accurately documented” what we now call quarks.

[saidevo]

Originally Posted by CraigD

Where in Occult Chemestry is the description of quarks you note? The closest passage I'm able to find is "But now with the atom of hydrogen dissected, so to speak, and found to consist of 18 somethings", but this description is a poor match of Particle Physics’s description of the hydrogen atom, in which there are 4 fermions: 1 down quark, 2 up quarks, and 1 (much less massive) electron. Also, Particle Physics allows quarks to exist in fermions only in threes, but Occult Chemestry states that “ultimate/minor/etheric atoms” may exist in “bodies” in twos, threes, fours, and more.

Occult Chemestry seem to me to have correctly concluded that nucleons (protons and neutrons) are built of smaller particles, but not predicted the correct number (3), or even that there is a single number. I can’t agree that Besant and Leadbeater “accurately documented” what we now call quarks.

Dear Craig,

I am not a hardcore Science student. My interest in Science is to the extent of
checking out what it says about certain affirmations of Theosophy and Hinduism.
I however hold the view that Theosophy and Hinduism offer a more holistic
world view than Science. I may therefore be excused for any statements I make
that are scientifically incorrect or only partially right.

Now, coming to your query, I have not read the original book Occult Chemistry
as I found it too much for me. The information I have given is taken from a
book titled "Essentials of Occult Chemistry and Modern Science" by H.J.Arnikar,
a publication from the The Theosophical Publishing House, Adyar, Chennai,
India. I quote below the relevant passage in page 23 of the book for your perusal:

"The sophisticated and expensive investigations of science based on quantum
thermodynamics led to the conclusion that the nucleons, the proton and the
neutrons, are not elementary and indivisible, but are each made of three sub-nuclear
particles, the quarks, bearing fractional charges of +2/3e and -1/3e as explained
above. It may be noted that the quarks are the only particles in the universe bearing
fractional charges. It may be recalled that the same model of the nucleus, identical
in every respect, except in nomenclature, was presented by Mrs. Besant and Bishop
Leadbeater as long ago as 1895 in Lucifer and their treatise Occult Chemistry
in 1908. The u and d quarks of today were referred to as the positive and negative
triads (or triplets) by the occultists. The second stage of progress in occult chemistry
was the discovery by clairvoyance that each triad (=quark) is, in turn, made up of
three Anus, bearing fractional electric charges of +5/9e and -4/9e. Modern
science has reached the stage of quarks, though after a gap of about 70 years.
It is yet to catch up with the concept of sub-quarks of charges +5/9e and -4/9e."

Imagine, conducting experiments using cliarvoyance! This book states that the two
participants of the Occult Chemistry experiments used the anima siddhi, a psychic
power that diminishes human consciousness to the tiny level of an atom so that
the atom can be observed in all its glory and activity in the normal state, rather than
the excited state of physical laboratories. We have something here, Craig, that the
mankind can benefit from.

So, quarks were known by the name triads in Occult Chemistry. The term Anu
(from Hinduism) refers to the ultimate constituent particle of a chemical atom, and
is also known by the name Ultimate Physical Atom (UPA), because this is the ultimate
atom of the physical plane. Dividing it further would result in the UPA vanishing from
the physical plane and ending up as the consitutents of matter of the astral plane.

Incidentally, Hinduism has postulated eons ago that the Anu is the ultimate particle
of the physical world and that the Paramanu is the ultimate particle of the cosmic
plane, and is formed as bubbles in the mulaprakruti, called Koilon in Theosophy
and Ether in Science. Thus, the UPA of the physical plane contains 13,841,287,201
(49^6) bubbles of Koilon!

It is fascinating to study the Theosophic view of the creation of the universe, which
is scientific and logical.

It was never my intention to find fault with or discredit the findings of Science.
I understand that the empirical and experimental methods are a must for Science.
My only point is that these are limited to the physical in Science, so you do not get
a proper and holistic worldview.

Despite its limitations, I understand that modern science is moving towards a unified
theory of everything. The efforts in this direction, I hope, will eventually bring a
symbiosis between Science and Spirituality.

Regards,
saidevo

[Southtown]

Originally Posted by saidevo

Your question can also be reversed: what makes you think they are visual anomalies and not a type of matter? Terming it as visual anomaly doesn't explain anything.

When the norm is challanged, it's not the norm's job to validate itself, but the opposition's. And a visual anomaly explanation would allow for the effects of visual physiology (3 times fast) to be considered and maybe even consciousness connections between the material realm and otherwise.

Originally Posted by saidevo

My only point is that these are limited to the physical in Science, so you do not get a proper and holistic worldview.

Tru dat, homie.