What Exists? No, Really.

[belovelife]

i agree
its already in the works though
watching a science channel show gives much more meaning to concepts
then old shool classroom educational films
keeps interest, you know that 10 min intrest rule
it resets interest level at each one of these intervals
and the visualizations are better

[Pyrotex]

Well, let's get this conversation back on topic. "What is Reality?"

The question has two interpretations, which I summarize as follows: What is going on "out there" independent and apart from our several senses, our brain and our mind?

And: What is the nature of the "Reality" that we live in "inside" our senses, our brain and our mind?

I discovered a few clues this weekend. In the game "Alpha Centauri", one of the characters, Academician Zahkarov says the following:

Take a set of sensory input data. Feed it into a function of arbitrary complexity. Now, take the output, square it, and feed it back into the function, adding in a new set of sensory data. Repeat, ad infinitum. What do you have? The basic operating principle of the human mind."

This is from a game, mind you. And yet, it strikes a certain chord of reality. If it seems familiar to you, it should be.

The Mandelbrot function [note that my avatar is obtained from it] is calculated almost exactly the same way! Take a point in the complex plane as your starting point. Square it. Whatever point this calculates to, add those coordinates into the value and square again. Repeat until the absolute value of your operation exceeds 4. Count the number of repetitions until this occurs and plot that number at the original point in the complex plane. Then take the next point in the complex plane and do it all again...

As the Mandelbrot Function jumps from point to point in the complex plane, the coordinates of each jump becomes the "sensory input data" -- which modifies the MF by "taking it to a new location".

I hope you see the parallels. Now consider the human mind as a function, call it the Consciousness Function, CF. In tiny asynchronous steps, input sensory data is fed into the receiving lobes of the brain (like the visual cortex). From there the input is "added" to the current "state" of the oscillating mind as it scans the Map from "far away" to the "self *I* point" (which may be the two attractors). This addition causes the Map to be updated.

This in turn triggers the mind to focus on certain aspects of the updated Map that are critical or unusual, thereby redirecting the mind. (This may be the function of "arbitrary complexity") The mind then modifies its relationship to the perceived Reality, triggering the creation of "

Minsky Agents
Minsky Agents

Minsky Agents, which in turn cause muscles to twitch and the body to move, speak and react.

Repeat ad infinitum.

The point in all this which excites me is that the mind itself is represented by an icon in the Map! Cows can't do this, because their Maps contain only representational icons ("the sensations at this location"). Humans have Maps containing semantic structures (Ubermaps), out of which the mind can build not only relational icons ("the sensations being felt by this mind have the following meaning"), but can also build a function of arbitrary complexity that can read and interpret the semantic meanings within the Ubermaps.

The icon of the mind in the Ubermap, must be built entirely of semantic structures. It is not so much a "thing" as it is a cluster of dynamically inter-related "meanings". As the Mind "thinks", the content and meaning of the thinking is updated in the Ubermaps icon for the mind.

And the semantic structure for the Mind (function of arbitrary complexity) can "observe" the mind icon in the Ubermap just as it "observes" the icons for automobiles in evening traffic. The Mind can observe the mind icon. The mind icon reflects what has been going on in the Mind, including a "history", if you will, of the Mind's "train of thought".

I don't know how I can define consciousness any better than this. So far. Any questions or comments???

[Thunderbird]

Originally Posted by Pyrotex

Well, let's get this conversation back on topic. "What is Reality?"

The question has two interpretations, which I summarize as follows: What is going on "out there" independent and apart from our several senses, our brain and our mind?

And: What is the nature of the "Reality" that we live in "inside" our senses, our brain and our mind?

I discovered a few clues this weekend. In the game "Alpha Centauri", one of the characters, Academician Zahkarov says the following:
This is from a game, mind you. And yet, it strikes a certain chord of reality. If it seems familiar to you, it should be.

The Mandelbrot function [note that my avatar is obtained from it] is calculated almost exactly the same way! Take a point in the complex plane as your starting point. Square it. Whatever point this calculates to, add those coordinates into the value and square again. Repeat until the absolute value of your operation exceeds 4. Count the number of repetitions until this occurs and plot that number at the original point in the complex plane. Then take the next point in the complex plane and do it all again...

As the Mandelbrot Function jumps from point to point in the complex plane, the coordinates of each jump becomes the "sensory input data" -- which modifies the MF by "taking it to a new location".

I hope you see the parallels. Now consider the human mind as a function, call it the Consciousness Function, CF. In tiny asynchronous steps, input sensory data is fed into the receiving lobes of the brain (like the visual cortex). From there the input is "added" to the current "state" of the oscillating mind as it scans the Map from "far away" to the "self *I* point" (which may be the two attractors). This addition causes the Map to be updated.

This in turn triggers the mind to focus on certain aspects of the updated Map that are critical or unusual, thereby redirecting the mind. (This may be the function of "arbitrary complexity") The mind then modifies its relationship to the perceived Reality, triggering the creation of Minsky Agents Minsky Agents, which in turn cause muscles to twitch and the body to move, speak and react.

Repeat ad infinitum.

The point in all this which excites me is that the mind itself is represented by an icon in the Map! Cows can't do this, because their Maps contain only representational icons ("the sensations at this location"). Humans have Maps containing semantic structures (Ubermaps), out of which the mind can build not only relational icons ("the sensations being felt by this mind have the following meaning"), but can also build a function of arbitrary complexity that can read and interpret the semantic meanings within the Ubermaps.

The icon of the mind in the Ubermap, must be built entirely of semantic structures. It is not so much a "thing" as it is a cluster of dynamically inter-related "meanings". As the Mind "thinks", the content and meaning of the thinking is updated in the Ubermaps icon for the mind.

And the semantic structure for the Mind (function of arbitrary complexity) can "observe" the mind icon in the Ubermap just as it "observes" the icons for automobiles in evening traffic. The Mind can observe the mind icon. The mind icon reflects what has been going on in the Mind, including a "history", if you will, of the Mind's "train of thought".

I don't know how I can define consciousness any better than this. So far. Any questions or comments???

I like it.

One "point" to keep things in simplest possible perspective.
These cyclical functions in the complex plane of consciousness originate as a coordinate of space-time. As you said.... this conceptual framework of time and place reality we share are inherited, tracked, maped and futher built upon. Outside our experience of this connecting our dots {coordinates} of cause and effect exist only probabilities that have no contextual context without the firsts cause space-time point of origin.

The Complex plane can be likened to the mapping of a sphere onto a plane and is the result of the curved Riemannian geometry used to model quantum and relativistic behaviour. A dimension shift is implicit here, as any triangle inscribed on a curved surface will have the sum of its internal angles add to more than 180 degrees. To move from one spatial dimension to another requires this type of operation. Theorised higher dimensions are believed to simplify physical laws to the extent that a unified theory of particles and forces linking the quantum and relativistic now seems within our grasp - they are the higher energy/symmetry, unstable dimensions referred to at the beginning of this review.

Complex numbers have a real and imaginary component, so as to express planar co-ordinates, to higher, lower, (or between) dimensions - in a more complete way. (Imaginary numbers when squared, can still yield negatives.) If we then place two basins of attraction (imagine a pendulum and two magnets) in this plane we can perhaps simulate the behaviour of Phi at either the quantum or relativistic scales. We know the Golden Mean acts as a super-attractive orbit between two repelling fixed points, so if we again run iterations of the equation for the circle, with c = -1 (-1 being i, the imaginary number, squared), we produce a Julia Set, a fractal in the complex plane, (named after its originator), for the Golden Mean.

The Mandelbrot Set is the encyclopaedia of all Julia Sets; it has been called the most complex geometric entity ever seen, is paradoxical in that it is a finite entity with an infinite boundary, and it too explicitly confirms Phi as of critical significance in its morphology.

Again, with c = -1 we see Phi as the super-attractive origin of the Period Two Disk of the Mandelbrot Set.

Geometrically, we are looking at sets with two basins of attraction: the infinite (ground) "escapee" set and the finite (figure) "prisoner" set. Iterating the equation yields one of these two results - points graphed to the complex plane land in either of these sets, to infinite scales and revealing infinitely changing details at their boundaries. Their boundaries are not only infinite, and infinitely complex--- but also contain self-similar, slightly mutated copies of the whole set. This boundary therefore, is the site of the instabilities between the two sets of figure and ground, which in turn yields new structures; it is the locus for the creativity of this set when viewed as either a static entity or as a dynamical system, and is an apt metaphor for the behaviour of those in nature itself.

The Period Two Disk itself (centred on the Phi Julia set) acts as a geometric oscillator in dynamic equilibrium, between the positive feedback of the infinite escape set, and the negative feedback of the finite prisoner set.

Universo: Dynamical Symmetries, by Nigel Reading

[Pyrotex]

Originally Posted by Thunderbird

...have no contextual context without the firsts cause space-time point of origin.

Do you mean "first cause" point of origin? The beauty of attractors is, you don't really need a point of origin. Any random point will generally do--it's just a matter of time before the iterations fall into place in the dynamic oscillations around the one (or more) attractors.

The quoted text was absolutely great. It does require a good bit of experience using the complex plane in mathematics and physics to fully appreciate its relevance to our discussion of Reality.

The one thing I hit on the hardest was the description of the Mandelbrot Set as having an infinite boundary, but finite area--perhaps the most complex math model ever constructed, one that even contains an infinite number of near-copies of itself!!!!!

One could argue that this function should enable one to store a near infinite amount of information in a finite volume. Hmmmm... Kinda sounds like the Mind, doesn't it. --- More later. I've got to get busy on work stuff.

[Thunderbird]

Originally Posted by Pyrotex

Do you mean "first cause" point of origin? The beauty of attractors is, you don't really need a point of origin. Any random point will generally do--it's just a matter of time before the iterations fall into place in the dynamic oscillations around the one (or more) attractors.

The quoted text was absolutely great. It does require a good bit of experience using the complex plane in mathematics and physics to fully appreciate its relevance to our discussion of Reality.

The one thing I hit on the hardest was the description of the Mandelbrot Set as having an infinite boundary, but finite area--perhaps the most complex math model ever constructed, one that even contains an infinite number of near-copies of itself!!!!!

One could argue that this function should enable one to store a near infinite amount of information in a finite volume. Hmmmm... Kinda sounds like the Mind, doesn't it. --- More later. I've got to get busy on work stuff.

“Any point will do” yes, its like the hands of a clock that move in relation to one other but have the same origin at the center of the clock face.
The center does not move even though the watch carried by the owner follows the cycle’s of time place to place time to time.

The earth spins the sun rises the earth tilts back in forth season to season and we all updated our calendars at the Monday morning meeting to synchronize our activities for the week and than I think to myself, "I’m just a cog in some giant clockwork that keeps grinding my life away. Its time for a smoke."

[Pyrotex]

Originally Posted by Thunderbird

...Its time for a smoke."

"Watson, this looks like a three pipe problem!"

[Pyrotex]

Here's a quickie description of Marvin Minsky's A Society of Mind, obtained from the Amazon.com link mentioned above:

From Publishers Weekly
Minsky, cofounder of MIT's Artificial Intelligence Lab, is a charter member of the community of AI pioneers committed to understanding the workings of the human mind and mimicking its processes by computer. Here he takes his place as this generation's Buckminster Fuller... But Minsky's difference is his style: he writes aphoristically, with wit and precision, and makes the most of his perception that the mind learns by images, which perform as agents that connect, interact and even "censor" in a staggeringly subtle "society" of microprocedures. This holistic view of the mind's learning stages is the culmination of Minsky's study, and its insights into the developing world of computers-as-machines are matched by paradoxically intuitive glimpses of the growth of a sense of "self" through introspection, short- and long-term memory, mind-frames utilizing pictures and language. Minsky's creative terminology for freshly perceived mental processes is a major contribution to the future of mind-science. Illustrated. Major ad/promo; Macmillan Book Club alternate.
Copyright 1986 Reed Business Information, Inc.

[Moontanman]

I have news for all of you, nothing exists beyond the reach of my senses. Every thing is either a figment of my imagination or or a construct of my mind, You better hope I don't forget you

[arkain101]

Originally Posted by Pyrotex

Here's a quickie description of Marvin Minsky's A Society of Mind, obtained from the Amazon.com link mentioned above:

What I have done is highlight the words that have reference to sighted people.

I suppose this an interesting model but what about the 'minds' born 'blind' ?

Aw, now that is a query. The mind learning without images. An icon developed through sounds and spacial awareness?

And what of the ones born blind and deaf, who still learn to communicate with their surroundings?

It seems pictures in the mind are not the cause of the effect, but a bit more of an effect produced in the cause. I agree the mind does a lot with images as its most tuned and focused sensory function, but there are a combination of other sensory functions that can take part in the manifestation of the icon self.

[belovelife]

i wonder, some say the entire body is the observer
so say you got burned by grabbing something hot
then when you remember it, your body looks at the burn
adding a data access point like a pointer
so not only does your image effect your obesrvation
but your observation + outside refrence points (other people's reactions)
effect your image (based on a communal map)