What is Science?

[lemit]

Originally Posted by Larv

Then I suppose it should follow that a spider exercises engineering when it builds its web.

Good work, Larv. It's interesting that although SidewalkCynic has said he meant to ask a different question and realizes the only correct answer to the question asked is "No," people want to answer the question SidewalkCynic didn't ask.

I'm trying to think of an analogy for this phantom chasing. Since your spider served you well, maybe you can think of a natural analogy for the people who can't help answering a question that isn't there.

--lemit

[SidewalkCynic]

Originally Posted by Larv

Then I suppose it should follow that a spider exercises engineering when it builds its web.

In a sense, because science and engineering are human constructs. But for better understanding, what does science claim the spider is doing, or how it "knows" how to do it?

I think the child exercises both science and engineering when walking. Isn't engineering applied science?

[SidewalkCynic]

Originally Posted by lemit

It's interesting that although SidewalkCynic has said he meant to ask a different question and realizes the only correct answer to the question asked is "No," people want to answer the question SidewalkCynic didn't ask.

Not exactly, because of the difference between the actions of automatic reactions and conscious actions (I forgot the correct terms).

Originally Posted by lemit

I'm trying to think of an analogy for this phantom chasing. Since your spider served you well, maybe you can think of a natural analogy for the people who can't help answering a question that isn't there.

Life in the fast lane.
A trial lawyer should have some possibilities

[Larv]

Originally Posted by SidewalkCynic

In a sense, because science and engineering are human constructs. But for better understanding, what does science claim the spider is doing, or how it "knows" how to do it?

I think the child exercises both science and engineering when walking. Isn't engineering applied science?

Do you think a child knows anything more about the science and engineering of walking than a spider does?

[Rade]

Originally Posted by Larv

Then I suppose it should follow that a spider exercises engineering when it builds its web.

Yes, of course it does. A little investigation into the concept of "ecosytem engineers" used in Ecology will give you more information about the concept of animals that "build" things.

The more important question is, does the spider do science when it exercises engineering ?

[Larv]

Originally Posted by Rade

Yes, of course it does. A little investigation into the concept of "ecosytem engineers" used in Ecology will give you more information about the concept of animals that "build" things.

Do you think any animal knowingly applies engineering principles to build whatever it builds? Do think it knows about the principles of gravitation, triangulation, vertical compression, and linear flexibility? And do think that animal could pass a PE exam?

The more important question is, does the spider do science when it exercises engineering?

Does a spider initially ask a question? Do background research? Construct an hypothesis? Experimentally test that hypothesis? Analyze the data? And communicate the results? If a spider does not do any of those things then it is not doing any science because it isn’t practicing the scientific method. Case closed.

[lemit]

This thread is becoming strange.

No, on second thought, it's just becoming strange in a new way. It's always been strange.

Keep at it, Larv. Maybe someday one of us will be able to explain the difference between science and motor responses in a way that even an adult will be able to understand. (As you can see, i've given up on getting people to see that there is no implication of motion in the original question. Life is too short.)

I have a question. Is a Hypography member on a staircase practicing science? How do we differentiate between that Hypography member, the child, and the spider (assuming the spider happened to be on the stairs).

The answer, as far as I know, is that Pyrotex would be practicing science, as I have to when my postpolio gives me partial paralysis. Then I have to try to figure out how to get my muscles to do the things my brain is trying to tell them to do.

Maybe that's the reason I know the difference. I occasionally have it thrust upon me.

--lemit

[lemit]

Oh, what the hell. Where is the suggestion of motion in the original question? The child could be having a tea party on the staircase for all we know. Since we've decided to fantasize ascent or descent (I'm not sure which, since I got left out of the fantasizing process), why not try have the child traversing the stairs, sitting on the stairs, or sleeping on the stairs? Is the child practicing science while it's falling down the stairs?

Is a Hypography member typing this post practicing futility?

--lemit

[SidewalkCynic]

Originally Posted by Larv

Do you think any animal knowingly applies engineering principles to build whatever it builds? Do think it knows about the principles of gravitation, triangulation, vertical compression, and linear flexibility? And do think that animal could pass a PE exam?

I think we measure this in different psycho-analysis fields - there are subjects about the psychology of animals

Originally Posted by Larv

Does a spider initially ask a question? Do background research? Construct an hypothesis? Experimentally test that hypothesis? Analyze the data? And communicate the results? If a spider does not do any of those things then it is not doing any science because it isn’t practicing the scientific method. Case closed.

it doesn't appear to be - so it must be majic, or memes, or religion, or dogma, or something.

[Rade]

Originally Posted by Larv

....Does a spider initially ask a question? Do background research? Construct an hypothesis? Experimentally test that hypothesis? Analyze the data? And communicate the results? If a spider does not do any of those things then it is not doing any science because it isn’t practicing the scientific method....

Well, the spider species discussed below has behavior that suggests it may well be doing some of the things on your list....

Dichotomistic logic - do spiders have a mind

Keep in mind, there are only two ways to 'know' anything: (1) from inside the thing, (2) from outside the thing. Do not assume that you "know" anything that goes on inside the brain of the spider, you know only what the spider allows you to know from observation of its behavior.

Science is not a list of activities done or a method of such activities, science is the process of having "uncertain knowledge" of that which exists. Spiders show all the behaviors of having such knowledge of their surroundings.