What is time?

[Michael Mooney]

Is it ok to evoke time as long as we are conscientious of its innuendos?

Naturally, as long as we agree that it is a convention applied to event duration... like an hour or a year or a nanosecond.
We can all agree that everything that happens "takes time" in the sense that the universe is not "frozen in time."

But now relativity insists that "time itself dilates." This is where the ontological argument begins.
Michael

[watcher]

Originally Posted by freeztar

Inertial frames are required.

and for inertial frame to be meaningful, observer is required.

Huh?

you think that the world exists as they were without consciousness? is it not? this is naive realism, it means that things, time, space are independent entities, all objective. but they are not, they are things, time and space because of how we see it.

No, do you?

i am not the one making claims that time in independent of consciousness.

[watcher]

Originally Posted by Michael Mooney

Naturally, as long as we agree that it is a convention applied to event duration... like an hour or a year or a nanosecond.

we appeared to be in agreement with this.

We can all agree that everything that happens "takes time" in the sense that the universe is not "frozen in time."

okay but do you have any understanding of motion other than the classical motion of a bullet or an arrow cruising in space?

[freeztar]

Originally Posted by watcher

and for inertial frame to be meaningful, observer is required.

Well, it only requires a wave/particle that can be used as an "observer".

you think that the world exists as they were without consciousness? is it not? this is naive realism, it means that things, time, space are independent entities, all objective. but they are not, they are things, time and space because of how we see it.

Spacetime? Yes?

i am not the one making claims that time in independent of consciousness.

Ok.

[Little Bang]

The definition of the word ontology, ( The study of existence. ). What the frap does that have to do with ( What is time? )? The definition of time, system of distinguishing events: a dimension that enables two identical events occurring at the same point in space to be distinguished, measured by the interval between the events. Example: the distance between two crests of a wave as in wavelength as measured using time.

[watcher]

Originally Posted by freeztar

Well, it only requires a wave/particle that can be used as an "observer".

yeah? who sets up or choose the frame of reference ?
who measures the particle ? who trigger the particle detector switch to stop the wave evolution and collapse the wave function and get a particle measurement result?

[Farsight]

I'm afraid I'd rather forgotten about this forum, apologies.

What is time? It's an emergent property of motion. Clocks clock up motion, not time. When you stop the clock or freeze the frame you stop motion, not time. Time is cofounded with motion through space, not with space. Things like stars and planets, and people and hands and cogs and sprockets and photons and protons move through space, not through time - and not through spacetime. Nothing moves through spacetime, that's the abstract mathematical space where we do our calculations and plot worldlines. The big bang occurred 13.7 billion years ago, but a year was measured using the motion of the earth, and is now measured using the motion of light. So the beginning occurred 13.7 light years ago. It was the beginning of motion, not the beginning of time.

Things like time dilation and the constancy of c are trivial once you understand time. And other things too. Ontology is important, because you have to learn to see what's there, and when you open a clock and gaze at those cogs and gears, you don't see time running like a river, and you don't see spacetime. You see space, and things in motion through it.

[watcher]

What is time? It's an emergent property of motion

can you define motion and what is its ontology?

[Michael Mooney]

Me:

If there were no clocks, what would "time" be?

Still no answer!
Watcher:

if there were no measuring rulers/rods, what would space be?
inches, meters are measures of space and in turn time expressed in seconds, minutes are the measure of motion.

If we didn't "make some *thing* of "it" in our minds and believe that measuring " it" establishes "its" existence, it would remain the empty volume in which all "things" exist and move.

if we can get past this simple definition of time, then we can move on to the onltology question... " what moves then?"

Everything moves.(**) How "long" any movement "takes" (the time factor) requires parameters overlayed by "the observer" doing the measuring, "stopwatch" in hand and with a specific focus on what "event" in particular he is "timing."
Earth spins on its own whether we measure its periods or not. We say one rev is a "day." Fine. Did we create something called "time" or just assign duration to the observed event? (A rhetorical question.)
**(This is also the short answer to your question in post 603):

okay but do you have any understanding of motion other than the classical motion of a bullet or an arrow cruising in space?

Me:

What entity/medium/aether/whatever would "dilate" if there were no clocks "keeping time" differently?

You:

quantum waves perhaps.

Please explain.
Michael

[Michael Mooney]

Originally Posted by Little Bang

The definition of the word ontology, ( The study of existence. ). What the frap does that have to do with ( What is time? )? The definition of time, system of distinguishing events: a dimension that enables two identical events occurring at the same point in space to be distinguished, measured by the interval between the events. Example: the distance between two crests of a wave as in wavelength as measured using time.

Wiki on ontology:

Ontology ... is the philosophical study of the nature of being, existence or reality in general, as well as of the basic categories of being and their relations. Traditionally listed as a part of the major branch of philosophy known as metaphysics, ontology deals with questions concerning what entities exist or can be said to exist, and how such entities can be grouped, related within a hierarchy, and subdivided according to similarities and differences.

So, " What the frap" ontology has to do with time is that it examines what it is...
Does it have "existence or reality" as an entity?...
before we start tossing the word around as if its existence is a given, already established. So when "science" uses the phrase "time dilation" it behooves us to understand what it is exactly that is said to be dilating!

Edit: This brings us back to my basic question above, still not answered,
If there were no clocks, what would "time" be?
Anyone?
Michael