Black Holes

[Farsight]

Originally Posted by Tormod

So...how *would* you get the carpet home?

(Sorry, I just *had* to ask!)

To get a negative carpet home I'd get down on my hands and knees in the living room with my clippers and cut a big square hole in my carpet four metres by four metres. Then I'd roll it up, put it over my shoulder, and take it to the carpet shop, walking backwards for dramatic effect. I would then hand it over to the man and accept his £100, then go home where I would crack open a bottle of wine with my guests and display to them my negative carpet on my living room floor. I will then be forcibly restrained and delivered to a safe place where people talk gently to me and ensure I take my medication.

The thing about all this is that a mathematical solution is sometimes crazy, but it's not always plain, and people just don't spot it. I've got that book, Craig, I used to think it was really good. I used to think Michiu Kaku was a great guy, somebody to really admire. Now I think he has bought some of those crazy solutions. Parallel Universes. Time Warps. Other scientists talk about Time Travel, and they are totally serious. Getting back to the point of the thread, most physicists talk about black hole singularities in a very familiar fashion, as if they were common objects, one in every lab.

But they really, really, do not exist. And they never ever will.


PS: Don't think I'm disparaging of General Relativity, I'm not. I just think there's something wrong with the mathematical formalism or the interpretation of it. There are no black hole singularities because time dilation goes infinite at the event horizon, so there's no singularities to cause a blow-up. I don't like to tout, but see RELATIVITY+ for details. If anybody can give me some considered feedback to it, I'd be grateful.

[Qfwfq]

Originally Posted by Popular

I will then be forcibly restrained and delivered to a safe place where people talk gently to me and ensure I take my medication.

I don't see why. Actually, you gave a perfect example, just like how one may have -1000 bucks in the bank...

[Farsight]

Originally Posted by Qfwfq

I don't see why. Actually, you gave a perfect example, just like how one may have -1000 bucks in the bank...

Where in the bank? Read this: MONEY EXPLAINED

[Qfwfq]

In the same "place" as when you have a positive balance.

I don't need an explanation of what money is and, if the example troubled you, imagine you have 7 tonnes of grain ripening in your field but you owe some trader a total of twelve, in exchange for cattle that was already delivered. Ya gotta come up with those 5 tonnes, before the cattle gets seized.

[Farsight]

That money isn't actually anywhere. If you bothered to read MONEY EXPLAINED you'd understand what I meant by that. And that -5 tons of grain that you've "got" isn't anywhere either. It's in the same "place" as my negative carpet. And the same "place" as the black hole singularity. Nowhere, because it isn't real, it doesn't actually exist. The black hole singularity will only exist in the future, and it's always in the future for all time.

[Qfwfq]

I did read that thread and gave my own reply.

And a debt is as real as your creditor's club!

[Farsight]

Show me some of this "real" debt. Weigh it, measure it, package it. Grind the Universe down to a powder then show me an atom of it. You can't, because debt is only a concept. A type of agreement. We can agree that IOU one carpet. The agreement is binding, we call it "real" by convention, even though we know it's intangible and is not a measurable property of any real system. And that carpet I owe you, my negative carpet, that's definitely not a real thing. It's just a concept. Just like the black hole singularity that will only exist in the future for the rest of time.

[Jay-qu]

Popular I think you have to get straight the difference in definitions between 'real' and mathematically real. By definition a real number is anywhere (but not including) from negative to positive infinity. While the real you refer to is that of a tangible object, yes I agree with you, you certainly cannot hold a negative quantity like a positive one but you have to be carefull how you throw around and define the word real.

[Qfwfq]

Originally Posted by Popular

Weigh it, measure it

-5 tonnes!

Obviously it isn't a specific part of all the grain that exists or will exist, this is simply because we're talking about a fungible asset. I disagree that it's just the mathematical definition of , the fact that an obligation can be enforced is a real, practical fact that makes the debt as real as the collateral it is backed by. Having your house mortgaged is very much like only owning part of it, although it works differently.

For comparison, suppose the situation about the grain arose not because you had misjudged the crop but because some of the grain was stolen just at the time of harvest, bringing the total down from the margin you were counting on when dealing for the cattle to 5 tonnes less than the total debt. Of your 12 tonne debt, 7 are still in your possession and 5 are not. This time you can associate your -5 tonnes with 5 of those stolen ones, wherever they are now.

Of course what you mean is that it isn't 5 tonnes of material. That's a different thing. Something needn't be material in order to be real. Actually the notion of material is something we take for granted in everyday experience but it gets a bit hazy down in particle physics, a particle and the corresponding antiparticle can each be somewhat regarded as the lack of the other. A sufficent amount of energy can even become the pair, each being the lack from which the other came out. Even with less than enough energy, it can happen virtually. Unlike the thieve's loot and your missing grain, either particle or antiparticle can be the lack and either can be the presence; it's both ways. Freakin' wierd, but that's how it is.

[Eilizsia]

Originally Posted by Gardamorg

I didn't know where to put this.

Nothing reaches the center of a black hole.


As an object enters a black hole it becomes smaller in volume and more condensed and heavier. So it might stay the same in mass but it still becomes smaller, and the closer it gets to the center of the black hole, the smaller it gets, this process goes on forever, the object never hits the center.

Black Holes Dont Have a Centre. They Have a Core, The Core Itself Collects Energy, When Energy surounding the black hole reduces, so does the lenght of the vortex, The vortex can only exist if the core exists, Usually the Core Is at the centre of a A Star. But sometime, It coulb be at the centre of a quasar