Communication and entropy

[wigglieverse]

Does anyone have a succinct explanation for the difference between thermodynamic entropy, and information entropy?

One uses Joule/degK, the other is dimensionless bits? Can't seem to get a good answer to this one from some sites. There seems to be some confusion in the, er, 'science' community. Biologists seem especially unsure about it.

A guy who claims to be a teacher told me "entropy is not = change". What?

[InfiniteNow]

Originally Posted by wigglieverse

A guy who claims to be a teacher told me "entropy is not = change". What?

Sure... However, it was more than one guy claiming to be a teacher who told you this. It was a graduate level physics professor, 2 people who work in nuclear plants, and pretty much every other member of the forum.

I'll give you the same definition I gave you on the other forum where you were just banned.

Just because you plug your ears and close your eyes does not mean it's not the accepted and correct definition.


Entropy is a thermodynamic quantity used to measure the disorder of a system.

define: entropy - Google Search



You said explicity that entropy = change.

If this logic is accurate, this means also explicitly that change = entropy.

This is due to the understanding that equality is reflexive, symmetric, and transitive.

Equality implies equivalence.


To prove your assertion wrong, one simply must come up with an example of change that is not entropy, since your calling them equal implies their equivalence.



Anyone wish to offer any examples to WiggleTroll of a change that is not entropy?


Be sure to differentiate between closed systems and overall universe, because (troll that he is) WiggleTrip will play semantic games with you to pretend you're wrong even when your example is understood in context by 99% of all readers.

[wigglieverse]

To prove your assertion wrong, one simply must come up with an example of change that is not entropy, since your calling them equal implies their equivalence.

Yes, folks. This is all you have to do.

equality is reflexive, symmetric, and transitive.

This would imply that your opinion of 'entropy', which simply cannot be based on any scientific notion, is equal to ignorance of what change actually is, or a measurement.

Apage! Ars tuum non scienta commutare.

[snoopy]

Entropy is the measure of randomness of a system it is not equal to change
and is given by Boltzmanns equation.

S = klogV

where S = Entropy of some system
V = to the volume of the system
and k is Boltzmanns constant.

I hope this helps

Peace

[HydrogenBond]

Entropy is disorder, while change can lead to both order or disorder. For example, if we change water from liquid to solid, there is a change that will lower the entropy that was contained in the liquid state.

Relative to communication and entropy, communication that increases entropy results in idea or beliefs becoming more subject to disorder. The mind will attempt to seek order and will lower entropy based on our belief systems. This will cause the entropy to lower into something logical.

Conversation is based on entropy and the lowering of entropy. When entropy increases it will absorb energy. The lowering of entropy releases energy. This is the verbal output. This energy output causes the entropy to increase in the other person, since it provides an energy source for the entropy. As the idea lowers entropy and releases energy, this is more verbal output.

Depending how much entropy is created and how much energy is released to lower the entropy, will determine the heat of the conversation. If nobody is listening such that there is little entropy change, the conversation is cool. If two people are listening and consider the other, the entropy increases and the energy release is higher making the conversation warmer. If the two people are yelling at each other, such a a political debate, both are trying to break the wall of the other increasing their entropy. As the wall reassembles the high entropy induction releases high energy for a heated debate.

An interesting form of communication entropy is romance. In this case, the information exchange is subjective to the subjectivities of romance. The data output is not exactly objective but is molded by the infatuation. The result is a dual entropy exchange that is not able to reach a lowest energy state for very long. One's mind and heart is in the spin of tactics and infatuation. A good analogy is trying to form the perfect crystal of minimal entropy. But each time it crystalizes out there are defects due to subjectivity. The result is the need to reheat the crystal again and again, with heat and warmth being released as the crystal tries to reform into perfection.

[wigglieverse]

Originally Posted by snoopy

Entropy is the measure of randomness of a system it is not equal to change

Another one; another 'scientist' who can only spell entropy, and give us Boltzmann's eqn. Get outta here, dude.

Originally Posted by HydrogenBond

Depending how much entropy is created and how much energy is released

Created?? Created where? Where the Fk is it? Another person who thinks entropy goes backwards too??
Isn't entropy a measurement? If it is, why should anyone think that measuring it means it must exist (ontologically)? We measure all sorts of things that don't have a real existence, we do this to explain the world.
Weight for example, is a projection our mind makes because of mass and gravity. We can do something with a bit of matter, but what can we do with a measurement except remember it?

Entropy seems to be a measurement that confuses all sorts of people. But it's 'just' a measure of mass dispersal, which we attribute to energy, which we otherwise call heat. It's also a measure of information flow. You know, information

Can any person who thinks they're a scientist tell me what Shannon entropy is and why it looks like Boltzmann's version (like it's an equivalent or something)? How about von Neumann entropy? Or conditional or equivocal entropy?
Maybe we can discuss this thing.

[HydrogenBond]

When entropy increases it absorbs energy which is why an expanding gas will get cooler. The thermal energy goes into the entropy so there is less heat. When we reverse or lower entropy, heat or energy is given off. One only has to compress the same gas. If you look at the entropy in a crystal, these are the defects. These high entropy zones contain potential energy relative to the perfect parts of the crystal with no entropy defects.

Because of the energy connection to entropy, i.e., entropy increase absorbs energy, if we add energy, we can increase entropy in a system that will not change entropy on its own. If I heat ice and it turns into liquid, I have used energy to increase entropy. Without the heat, the entropy would have stayed the same. If we take away heat and the ice reforms, we take away energy such that the entropy decreases. By cooling a system one can lower the entropy in a system that has steady state entropy.

Since entropy is disorder, entropy provides confusion in thinking. It can add defects, such as new data, that alters the way we see things. Since it contains potential energy, when order forms again and entropy begins to decrease, these will be an energy output, i.e., eureka!! The emotions are a good barometer for the level of energy being released as the mind tries to make sense and restore a sense of order and lowers entropy.

Although entropy communication is disorder, confusion and defects, this doesn't have to be bad. Sometimes new ideas create disorder, confusion and defects in older thinking. It sort of cracks, shatters or melts the old crystal by adding entropy. This type of entropy give us another opportunity for a better crystallization with a net lowering in entropy. Science sort of works this way, with each new discovery adding entropy followed by an evolving understanding that turns the entropy into a state of order.

An interesting twist is order that appears to be entropy. For example, when Copernicus confirmed the earth was not at the center, this was order or natural truth that acted like entropy, with respect to the old way. This unique situation was not an entropy defect but was analogous to a seed crystal added to the melt, on which science was born.

[InfiniteNow]

Originally Posted by wigglieverse

Another one; another 'scientist' who can only spell entropy, and give us Boltzmann's eqn. Get outta here, dude.

Created?? Created where? Where the Fk is it? Another person who thinks entropy goes backwards too??
Isn't entropy a measurement? If it is, why should anyone think that measuring it means it must exist (ontologically)? We measure all sorts of things that don't have a real existence, we do this to explain the world.
Weight for example, is a projection our mind makes because of mass and gravity. We can do something with a bit of matter, but what can we do with a measurement except remember it?

Entropy seems to be a measurement that confuses all sorts of people. But it's 'just' a measure of mass dispersal, which we attribute to energy, which we otherwise call heat. It's also a measure of information flow. You know, information

Can any person who thinks they're a scientist tell me what Shannon entropy is and why it looks like Boltzmann's version (like it's an equivalent or something)? How about von Neumann entropy? Or conditional or equivocal entropy?
Maybe we can discuss this thing.

Troll.

[wigglieverse]

Originally Posted by HydrogenBond

Since it contains potential energy, when order forms again and entropy begins to decrease, these will be an energy output, i.e., eureka!! The emotions are a good barometer for the level of energy being released as the mind tries to make sense and restore a sense of order and lowers entropy.

Entropy does not decrease. Sorry, but you would not get marks for a reply like that in a Physics exam.
You're talking about a reversible process.
How about von Neumann entropy? Or conditional or equivocal entropy?
Maybe we can discuss this thing.
Or maybe not.

[Erasmus00]

Originally Posted by wigglieverse

Entropy does not decrease. Sorry, but you would not get marks for a reply like that in a Physics exam.

Entropy for a small system can both increase and decrease. UNIVERSAL entropy cannot decrease. There is a difference.

Entropy has nothing to do with change, but rather is a specific measure of the randomness of a system. It is NOT a measurement.

Von Neumann entropy is a specific type of entropy of quantum mechanical systems- it is essentially the straightforward application of Boltzmann's ideas to quantum system using density matrix approaches.

Shannon entropy stems from a realization about entropy that can best be understood by looking at Maxwell's demon- i.e. information itself carries entropy (if information were completely ordered, it would be easily to compress data- not so. The more dense the data, the more random the storage device.). In proper units (boltzmann's constant = 1, i.e. we measure temperature in units of energy), it is a straightforward extension of boltzmann entropy.

I really don't understand if you've asked a question here- you have made a few statements and denigrated people who try to answer. Whats the point?
-Will