electromagnetic motor

[alexander]

you are talking a sort of a capacitor that will be charged up, and then discharged into the battery somehow. Here's the thing, the car's conductive, as you say, body is actually ground out on the battery to prevent the accumulation of deadly amounts of static electricity on the body, that thing that is potentially what could damage the onboard electronics, or shoot a spark right through the gas tank (fun times, i tell ya).

this also saves on wire, as anything touching the body or frame is ground by default. They did it for safety, what you are trying to say though is different. Using the body as a capacitor is an interesting idea for sure, but there are problems with it. Firstly you will be getting a high voltage, say 30-140k volts, at next to nothing amps, this requires a converter, aka a transformer, or else, say by-by to your batteries and electroncs on board. Such transformer adds a tremendous amount weight, and you would have to devise a system that will control the discharge at a certain voltage, as well as another system that will protect your circuit against surges. Lastly you will have to ground your system out to the ground (in order to get the electrons to flow) and that ads another problem.... one that only happens very occasionaly, but if lightning strikes the car, you will fry the entire system, as well as blowing the batteries, and everything that was operating off of them, effectively making your car.... useless (mmm fried car)

[alexander]

Just thought about it some more, i think you will be able to generate more power out of a photovoltaic paint (and such does exist, though not in production, 3 coats (to capture different frequencies, and you are all set) then you would from this static system... at least as of my current understanding of electricity (and i run overclocked calculators, build not-so-easy buttnos for fun, and sometimes build remote control robots, controlled with a tv remote...)

[Moontanman]

alex, one other thing is important, using the air passing over a car to generate electricity will cause friction, it can't be helped. Getting power out of the flowing air will cause friction, has to.

[ryan2006]

Moontanman, so far you have been a big critic basing everything you say on the reduction of friction so show us how you would reduce friction. Since I have known you you have done everything to slow down progress by not helping us with something that would reduce friction. Since you probably know everything about friction what kind of ideas do yo have to reduce it?
And how much friction do you actually get from a coat of paint?

[Moontanman]

Originally Posted by ryan2006

Moontanman, so far you have been a big critic basing everything you say on the reduction of friction so show us how you would reduce friction. Since I have known you you have done everything to slow down progress by not helping us with something that would reduce friction. Since you probably know everything about friction what kind of ideas do yo have to reduce it?
And how much friction do you actually get from a coat of paint?

Ryan, I am not trying to rain on your parade, I am just trying to point out that you cannot generate energy for free. It always takes power to generate power and that you always loose power in the process. It's not how much friction a coat of paint makes it's how you make power with the surface that matters. If you are using friction from the airflow to make power you are going to slow down the car a little bit. Just enough to off set any gains from the power generation. It's not that I don't want your idea to succeed, it's just that power always costs something, it's never free. Now if you want to talk about how to lessen friction I am all for that but even then no matter how hard you try you cannot eliminate friction completely. Most of the time you cannot even get close to it. Aerodynamics including slick paint is a good start, if you could use them magnetic bearings would be good, hard wheels, one a hard surface (that's why trains run iron wheels on iron tracks) Lots of ways to cut down friction but no way to generate power with out causing friction.

[alexander]

Originally Posted by Moon

alex, one other thing is important, using the air passing over a car to generate electricity will cause friction, it can't be helped. Getting power out of the flowing air will cause friction, has to.

As opposed to driving in a vacume?

Air passes over your car, whether you like it or not, if you dont ground out the body of the car, that air will cause a static charge to build on the body of the car, if you use the body as a sort of a capacitor you can use that static charge to charge your batteries... problem is, it will require lots of equipment, and changes to the car, and still isn't economical. The principal is kind of the same principal as the helicopters, and the reason there is that long wire hanging off the hook they lower, and why you have to ground it out before you touch the wire it... people have been killed by the static build-up.

In short, it wont cause any more friction then the current car bodies, just lots more electric shocks.

[Moontanman]

Originally Posted by alexander

As opposed to driving in a vacume?

Air passes over your car, whether you like it or not, if you dont ground out the body of the car, that air will cause a static charge to build on the body of the car, if you use the body as a sort of a capacitor you can use that static charge to charge your batteries... problem is, it will require lots of equipment, and changes to the car, and still isn't economical. The principal is kind of the same principal as the helicopters, and the reason there is that long wire hanging off the hook they lower, and why you have to ground it out before you touch the wire it... people have been killed by the static build-up.

In short, it wont cause any more friction then the current car bodies, just lots more electric shocks.

I stand by what I said, if you extract energy from the motion of air over the car you will change that flow in a way that causes more friction. You can use energy to cut the friction of air over the car (ionizing the air flow cuts friction ever so slightly) so it stands to reason that the opposite would take energy from the motion of the car as well.

[alexander]

I stand by what I said, if you extract energy from the motion of air over the car you will change that flow in a way that causes more friction.

Not reading the posts, eh?
I 100% agree with you that generating energy from motion is = to decreasing efficiency. Only way to regenerate enrgy is by using wasted energy, such as using regenerative braking. Static build up on the body of the car is generally a wasted energy source, and as i said, it will NOT increase air friction, you are not changing the body design, you are using the physical process that happens to your car anyways, but is generally wasted by grounding the body of the car to the battery. It still does not sound economical to regen energy this way, to me anyways, but it will not increase the air friction...

ionizing the air flow cuts friction ever so slightly

not at 60 mph.... it would make a difference only at very high rates of speed, and the amount of power needed to ionize the air is too much, you wont save any energy from doing that. It was tested by Russia in the mid 80s, they had an unmanned craft flying at mach6, and basically used to ionize the air to signifficantly cut the air friction, and thus heating of the nose of the plane. They basically said that it takes too much power, and not that they fully gave up on the project, but they just flew slower... and put the apparatus on hold till better power management is possible (maybe the spy planes use it or something, or the experimental craft, like SU47 Berkut, they dont say, but as far as i know, it's not used in any curerntly in-use aircraft, though as you say, it does work)

[Moontanman]

Originally Posted by alexander

Not reading the posts, eh?
I 100% agree with you that generating energy from motion is = to decreasing efficiency. Only way to regenerate enrgy is by using wasted energy, such as using regenerative braking. Static build up on the body of the car is generally a wasted energy source, and as i said, it will NOT increase air friction, you are not changing the body design, you are using the physical process that happens to your car anyways, but is generally wasted by grounding the body of the car to the battery. It still does not sound economical to regen energy this way, to me anyways, but it will not increase the air friction...


not at 60 mph.... it would make a difference only at very high rates of speed, and the amount of power needed to ionize the air is too much, you wont save any energy from doing that. It was tested by Russia in the mid 80s, they had an unmanned craft flying at mach6, and basically used to ionize the air to signifficantly cut the air friction, and thus heating of the nose of the plane. They basically said that it takes too much power, and not that they fully gave up on the project, but they just flew slower... and put the apparatus on hold till better power management is possible (maybe the spy planes use it or something, or the experimental craft, like SU47 Berkut, they dont say, but as far as i know, it's not used in any curerntly in-use aircraft, though as you say, it does work)

Now were splitting hairs, if ionizing the air doesn't significantly affect friction at low speed I will say that low speed will not produce significant static energy. (another factor not mentioned is whether or not the air is dry, humid air doesn't produce static even close to the way dry air does) I guess we need a real expert to chime in and spank one of us

[alexander]

Agreed, and in fact i have said so in my earlier post.

I will say it one more time. Static regenerations IS NOT a good solution, it requires a lot of equipment, it requires to have special wheels and tires (the only way you will get electrons moving is to have a ground). It requires car electronics to be isolated to prevent arcs, it increases the amount of damage to the car in an event of a lightning strike (you will get more then some weld marks, i'll say that)