Speed of Gravity and Speed of Light thoughts and ponderings...

[Noah]

Ok, this is something I have been thinking on a while, and thought I would post my ramblings here.

Here is a Hypography Article that is related to this.
Speed of Gravity Researcher Stands Behind Theory
And another link related.
Speed of Gravity Measured for First Time

Ok, Einstein's theories say that the Speed of Gravity should equal the speed of light, right? This recent experiment puts forth evidence supporting this. That's all cool, but here's a twist/paradox I've thought of.

A Black Hole is a point in space with such a high density and gravity well that not even light traveling at 186,000MPS can escape. Ok, now for a second lets us imagine that gravity is not a curvature of space, but rather a force, possibly created by the theorized graviton particle. If light cannot escape a Black Hole, and the Speed of Gravity does = the Speed of Light. How could the Gravity escape if it could not travel faster than the speed of light? And since the speed of light is the ultimate barrier, it couldn't escape.
And I'll throw the Varying Speed of Light (VSL) theory in too. It theorizes that in a black hole light does not move at all, thus the speed limit is zero. However, if the gravity could not "escape" then the black hole could not exist in the first place. You can see that this is a looping paradox, just like time-travel. The only way around it is that gravity should operate on a completely different set of rules (which is true in part, this being the problem to creating a grand unified theory).

Have more thoughts on this, but it has been over 37 hours since I've slept, I'll post later.

Noah

[Sharky]

Turmod, Demonstar and myself are currently in a heated discussion on this very subject in the challenge posting on page one of this forum. I think you'll find your explaination there for sure!

[Tormod]

Hey Sharky, you're replying to Noah, not me.

Tormod

[deamonstar]

Tormod... I believe that you have mis-read that. sharky was listing the three of us, not replying to you directly.

sharky... I wouldn'y really call it a "heated" disscusion...

noah... the answer to your paradox is in your own statement "lets us imagine that gravity is not a curvature of space"... it IS a curvaure. I have very little faith that gravity is a particle of any kind. I believe that it is a pseudo-force similar to centrifugal force. that is not to say that we don't experience an effect from gravity... much in the same manner that we actually DO feel the effects of centrifugal force even though there is really no such 'force'. it is the product of other forces combined.

[Tormod]

Thanks, deamonstar...Ooops...must be the heat (the weather, not the forums)...sorry about that, Sharky.



Tormod

[wholloway]

Here's my therory of gravity, though it still has some holes to fill in.

In my universe, the mass of a star or planet displaces space time. The higher the mass the more displacement. The displaced space time gets squashed or compressed around the mass. Its like forcing a golf ball into a large bowl of jello. The further away you get from the mass the less compression of the space time. When an object travels through this space time that is compressed, the side of the object that is closer to the mass acually travels farther through space time than the side away from the mass. This is because the space time closer to the mass is more compressed. So it may seem like a object is traveling in a straight line but it is actually traveling in an arc. The movement through an arc creates a centripidal force that is directed towards the mass. This force is gravity. This is simular to taking a hard right turn in a car, the wheels on the outside of the turn travel farther than the inside tires. The big hole in this therory is that in order for this to work everything in the universe has to be in constant motion. This may be taken care of by an expanding universe. If a mass suddenly apears in space time, the compression wave would travel outward at the speed of light. One cool result of this therory is if a mass suddenly disappears the collapsing field would acually reverse gravity for a short time.

Let me know what you think.

[deamonstar]

interesting... very interesting. so, instead of mass creating a dip or hole in space time it makes a bulge?

[wholloway]

Yep. the hole is still there but the space time that filled the hole is displaced, not eliminated. I never liked the "dip" theory but I suposed it worked good for TV specials.

[LJG]

Perhaps gravity is just a way to describe the time factor in the accellerated expansion and flattening of the universe. http://macrocosmicsymmetry.com/jpaper2.html

When I look at the stars, I can almost visualize it happening. Everything is in constant motion until it all stops at perfect symetry. Makes sense to me that mass, time, and motion are inseparable. The alternative is nothing.

Linda

[darktr00per]

As the density increases, the path of light rays emitted from the star are bent and eventually wrapped irrevocably around the star. Any emitted photons are trapped into an orbit by the intense gravitational field; they will never leave it. Because no light escapes after the star reaches this infinite density, it is called a black hole.