The theory of Infinity - any ideas on this?

[C1ay]

Originally Posted by liliangrn

Sorry I didn't mean the expansion was slowing down. Rather that the expansion is going much more slowly than would be expected if there were no universal gravity. Imagine a bubble and everything outside the bubble is, basically, a black hole. Now consider that everything inside this bubble is the universe as we know it. Hey it's a crazy thought but I cannot see any other reason for this universal gravity (which is isometric, which means it comes form all directions)

Wild huh?

Try telling this to anyone though.

Josephine

It sounds like you are saying that our universe is at the center of an enourmous black hole. If the bubble is surrounded by a black hole everywhere outside of the bubble then wouldn't the tremendous gravity of that black hole accelerate the expansion or would it eventually lead to the big crunch?

[NomadaNare]

I like your theory, it looks like you gave it some serious thought but, just a few questions. What would cause such a "finite bubble" if there are equal forces both at the center and outside the bubble? It seems very strange that if these forces can balance each other through the bubble, they shouldn't be able to balance themselves without the bubble.

Also, my knowledge is limited on black holes so work with me; I was under the impression that black holes had specific mass that was very large but not infinite (otherwise we'd all be swallowed up), we just couldn't measure it because of the whole GR thing and the warping of space-time. This would also explain why black holes swallow each other sometimes.

Lastly infinity is a very tricky concept because within it, one can basically say 1 = 2 and math goes all crazy. If this occurs, than all of physics as we know it goes wacky and the idea of balancing forces goes out the window, because just as infinity equals infinity, infinity doesn't equal infinity at the same time.

Hi NormadaNare,

"I like your theory, it looks like you gave it some serious thought but, just a few questions. What would cause such a "finite bubble" if there are equal forces both at the center and outside the bubble? It seems very strange that if these forces can balance each other through the bubble, they shouldn't be able to balance themselves without the bubble."

Thank you. Well really it's a work in progress and questions regarding the theory in practices are helping me iron out the creases. Your questions are rather intelligent and requires me to do a lot of processing. I know very little about physics. I just found an interest in due to a discussion about the 'big bang' about a month ago. Since this, I have been studying physics intensely and, a recent conversation with a proffesor, who explained the inconsistancies of SR in regard to black holes, brought me to the conclusions of my theory.

Now with regard to bubbles this question is in regards to HOW it exists. Well I do not really know and another question you could have tacked on to this response is: If it is a bubble how is it expanding? because we all bubbles do not expand, right?

I will answer this question by explaining why a bubble MUST exist. Well there MUST be finite time to a finite spacetime, right? That would mean there would be a start and a finish. Just as a star implodes at the end of it's lifespan and our body dies at the end of ours. Then our finite universe must also have a lifespan. The 'big bang' theory can't explain how the universe is an extension of a previous finite spacetime. Whereby, if all that existed before the 'big bang' were finite gases, that, exploded to create our present universe, We must ask where did these gases come from? They would have a life span too, wouldn't they? So if everything is finite the neccesary consideration would be how would something that existed infinitely up to this point suddenly burnout: like a star imploding into infinite spacetime. Since the suggestion is that OUR finite spacetime is infinite, it thus goes beyond all logical reasoning. A possible explanation for this is that due to laws of conservation of energy and mass, this finite energy always existed so, when one form burnsout another form is created, adopting, the same energy that existed before. But this can be conclusively thrown out due to the fact, that, if everything we see existed in it's current state (in one form or another) infinitely, up to this point, how would a black hole exist? That is, we would already exist within an infinite space time i.e. our spacetime IS the infinite spacetime.
The fact that we are in a finite spacetime arising out of infinite spacetime (i.e. whatever is beyond these blackholes) is the only conclusion I can make.

As to how we could understand how this bubble exist:

The following equation measures the exact pressure required to create a bubble. Pi = the pressure within the bubble and Po = the pressure outside the bubble.

Pi - Po = 4T/r

I'm not quite sure how bubbles works, nor how infinite spacetime works. I need to do a fair bit of research here to understand this i.e. that is if I can ever understand it.

Your question gives rise to a lot of other feasible questions like;

How would the bubble expand as this is not nature as we know it to be?
How would infinite spacetime 'explode' into finite time?
What is contained in infinite spacetime?
What kind of qualities does infinite spacetime posess?
What kind of energies or forces would infinite spacetime posess?

I have not a clue at the present time.

"Also, my knowledge is limited on black holes so work with me; I was under the impression that black holes had specific mass that was very large but not infinite (otherwise we'd all be swallowed up), we just couldn't measure it because of the whole GR thing and the warping of space-time. This would also explain why black holes swallow each other sometimes."

Gravity of a black hole can be measured based on Newton' s Gravitational Constant. The distance from the centre of gravity where the gravity reaches an infinite force is the event horizon. (This is basically the radius where light infinitely red-shifts.)

Light speed being 3 000 000 000 000m/second cannot escape at this point and spacetime is bent infinitely. This is based on an accurate knowledge of the relationship that gravity has with the curvature of spacetime. There is a discrepancy with regard to the Lorentz transformation but, it so tiny that, noone can discredit the accuracy of this calculation. Between this point and the centre of gravity physicists are unaware of the qualities of this spacetime. If an object is 'sucked' into this BH the mass increases therefore the event horizon is also larger. Gravity should therefore also increase. But all it really does is create a larger space where spacetime is infinitely bent (if the blackhole 'sucked in' the whole universe it would become the size of the external 'bubble', thus, returning infinite spacetime back to it's original state). So we know at the event horizon gravity is a constant infinity and the force never increases at this point. This would be regardless of the BH's size.

With regards to your question, would we be sucked into this black hole if it posessed infinite gravity. I'll explain this:

Imagine if you were directly in the middle of two black holes, then, they would be applying equal pressure and neither could pull you in. If you moved, however, toward one black hole the force would slowly 'suck' you in. This is where my theory began.
If, however, our finite spacetime were encased within an infinite spacetime bubble, then forces would be pulling from all directions at all times which would make you static (i.e. sitting still). If the universe were expanding, on the other had, then all the planets and stars would be pulled apart relative to the expansion of the universe. I hope this makes sense.

"Lastly infinity is a very tricky concept because within it, one can basically say 1 = 2 and math goes all crazy. If this occurs, than all of physics as we know it goes wacky and the idea of balancing forces goes out the window, because just as infinity equals infinity, infinity doesn't equal infinity at the same time."

Well Cantor's concept of infinity defines different sized infinities. There are large ones and small ones, but infinity always equals infinity according to my thinking. You may be correct but I haven't really got that far in my studies.

Excellent questions.
Josephine

[justforfun]

Originally Posted by C1ay

Hello Josephine and welcome to Hypography. That is quite an interesting theory you have there. I think you would have better luck at stirring up some conversation by breaking it up until smaller discussions on it's parts though. I personally envision our universe as sort of a bubble itself, a local, finite collection of matter and energy in a larger infinite space. Of course, we can never know if this is true or not.

I really like your idea of our universe being a finite part of an infinte 'superuniverse'. I'm a little puzzled why we can never know if this is true or not. Maybe the coming AI supergeniuses can tell us ...

[noumenon]

I find interesting when researching the Internet on the Theory of Infinity as it related to the physical Universe. There are theories that focus on a beginning, such as the Big Bang, which seems to denote a singular event, due to physical laws and Cosmological Principle. Backing that up are observations of the fine structure content and the age of the Universe as being recorded by the Wilkinson Microwave Anisotropy Probe WMAP. [reference Wikipedia]

Still, there seems to be a singularity with the Big Bang, which makes the Universe more like a July 4th fireworks display on a grand scale. It would seem the focus on Infinity should be started at a level much smaller then the a star system.

Below are some premises that will try to focus one's imagination away from preconceived ideas. They are just intended to establish a frame of thinking, before a proposition can be formated and then empirical data can be collected.

1. The Universe has always existed.
2. Is the definition of the Universe, all that resides in space, and the Universe can be dated to around 13.73 billion years, given the current technology, this presumes the Universe hasn't always existed, or that only the part that can be seen and measured is a certain age.
3. The Universe is make up of the 117 known elements from the Periodic Table.
4. The 117 elements of the Periodic Table or their atomic mass have always existed. Floating in the void of space. Sometimes very far apart from each other and sometimes very close. Close enough to cause chemical reactions on a small scale or a very enormous scale.
5. A Universe of only as random particles made up of the atoms of chemicals from the Periodic Chart, floating in the void of space is still a Universe.
6. Lifeforms on Earth have a longevity.
7. Stars have a longevity.
8. The Universe has no longevity but encompasses the longevity of all things.

The proposition is that even one atom of the 117 chemicals found in the Periodic Table is infinite, that would be the Universe. And to understand the Theory of Infinity one would have to understand one atom and it's nuclear properties as an infinite particle.

Post note:

I can only be be amazed at the Probability Theory that enabled lifeforms to exist on Earth. This planet hit the Cosmic Lottery and may really only be the lifeforms to exist at this conscious level. To feel a sense of being. To survive the occurrence of Natural Selection, not just mimicking but understanding the results before the actions. Building complex tools to provide a comfortable longevity. The human search for knowledge may be the key to an infinite existence.

[CHADS]

I had the same theory a while back where Everything wants to travel Towards C.

A BlackHole Singularity is the closest mass can get to 1 dimensional point .... the bigger the black hole the more the mass/energy it has collected is spread along 1 d line.

OutSide the universe is the same as the central points of particles Who want to travel at C. The Expanding Universe(Cosmic Expansion) Wants to travel into A 1 D point which is the The edge of the universe(Event Horizon) .. Like a Black Holes except A black hole has Mass .. Where the outside of the universe is the sum of all particles Centres .

In this model the masses in the universe will Continue expanding always trying to get to the edge Which is the Quintisential Edge of the whole universe but the Edge is closer to light. In comparison the small scale Universe is Further down as it is to the edge on a big scale.

The uncomfortable part comes with trying to rationalise that Atoms /particles all want to travel into there own centres Toward C which is a Quicker Way for them (Becuase they are travling Quick) to the edge of the universe than the Macro edge of the Universe.

This leads to an almost 4 dimensional thought ... Also The surface Area of the
outside of the universe is mapped with wave probabilities which seperate 1 dimensional and the 3 dimensional.

I think this model explains a lot ....

If you travel at C you in essence ocupy the outside of the bubble but on the bubbles surface and any further speed would lead you to a Probability Infinite.

Heavy Stuff but experiments can support this model Although i dont know the math.

Essentially like water always seeks out the lowest point it can spread out .... mass wants the same except its not the spreading to the edge of the universe ... The fastest way to the most freedom is within its centre(gravity centre and individual Centre) toward Infinite Probability.

Inertia Maintains the slowness compared with C;
Gravity is the result of the mass/energys pushing into all the Different energy/Velocity states that have piled up onto this 1 dimensional Attractor;
Velocity increases the proximity to this region .... C;
The Particle Accelerators create larger energy Particles by digging into the pilled up energies;
If you push a mass in space it continues becuase it is always seeking its centre within itself ... You may think that it will slow itself down becuase it always wants to travel inward but this preserves its inertia .. Kinetic energy ..its like going around an abstract 1d point in a circle untill other masses have an effect on it..... The whole mass is scraping along all the Energys that want to travel at C ...

Finally Scientists are looking at Whats Toward the finestructure of the bubble if you like ... Using models that hold Mathematical reasoning ... like string theory ...
Each probing the "bubbles" Quantumn gravity Theory and more.

[arkain101]

Maybe this will interest you... that is, some of my thoughts on blackholes ...

Let's observe the physical orientation of a star such as our own sun. Although the outter layer of the sun is dense relative to our understanding it is like a cloud in comparison to the super dense core. Now, I am not aware of what the core physically looks like or behaves like but we do know that the core is rotating, how fast, I am not sure. Also, if the core were dense enough, and / or rotating fast enough it is possible that it could be producing a significant doppler shift (redshift) in its local zone... however, due to the thick violent outter ocean of the star seeing the core is an impossibility.






Physicists with the right equipment could probably produce the accurate experiment with a computer animation model and such to further elaborate on what I am saying.... and that takes us to the next part..

I question, is a black hole a supermassive body in a state of extremely high velocity of orbiting matter. The study of black holes shows us how black holes do not tend to suck up large objects in one whole gulp... but rather it unwinds them like a ball of yarn, starting from the end of the string and sucking it up as so. It takes alot less energy to put small atoms into high velocity orbit than it does an entire star. When I speak of high velocity orbit I am refering to near and up to velocity of C (speed of light).

As special relativity explains length contraction occurs to matter observed at a very high velocity.. Now around a black hole there is no object per say experience length contraction but rather trillions upon trillions of atomic material's increasing in mass, velocty and the dilations dictated to us under the theory of special relativity.

So we visualise this object as a super fast rotating stream of material. We must ask in what shape is this object likely to arange itself. What we know is that the independent molecules have aquired a velocity and mass at such a level that the atomic forces should be losing their influence.. thus we can not consider the black hole as a bonded object but more like a dish of water(the space-time) spinning and the material caught in this whirl pool like particles of dust or sand ... Each particle influencing the other mainly by its gravitational disturbance through space and time.

The object thus in this reasoning is more like a disk than it is a sphere. As we know the center of a rotating disk is a low energy state. This is due to lower rotational velocity. If anything was ever to slow down in this particular spinning system of a black hole, it would be at the center that it was able to escape. This is where scientists discovered black holes emit powerful jets of new atomic material. Is this why we are able to detect and observe 'something' escaping from a black hole only from the poles in a perpendicular direction to the expected rotation of the 'body' as a hole? It is a question worth understanding..


Futhermore, as we observe galaxies around the universe we see that they to are typically flat like a disk in appearence. Is this because the gravitational field of a black hole is thing and disk shaped as opposed to sphereical. In some of my studies there has been research into this possiblity that the gravity field is in a thick condensed disk shape around the black hole. And if an object were to pass by a galaxy in a perpencilar direction to the disks plane and rotation it would be influenced very little, so much so as to drift away not getting caught up in an orbital behavior.


In this concept, the possiblity of infinities and singularities is out of the equation. Again we can fall back onto special and general relativity to helps explain the causes and effects.

As for the Hawking Radiation... or other forms of low frequency and low energy emissions... this could be tied into the principle that one side of the disk is moving away and the other towards, and the center perpendicular to the observer viewing the disk at plane level, peering into the edge. Materials breaking apart as they enter into the rotational orbit would be more capable send EMF when they are moving in the direction of an observer... In this case energy could be spewing off all the time but only detectable for a short period and in a headon circumstance of reference frame and observer. Thus generating a puslating effect of a laser like observable stream of redshifted and dilated energy.

[marlyn]

I thought you might be interested in Nassim Haramein's work. I came across your posting and found it to be related to Nassim's work.


His website is theresonanceproject dot org

If you go to video google you can search Nassim Haramein and there is a 2 part lecture from the Rogue Theatre that is mind blowing. The lecture is 8 hours and very worth viewing.

I was introduced to the work of physicist Nassim Haramein in 2005 by a former roommate. She lent me two VCR tapes of very poor quality containing an older lecture. Regardless of the poor quality of the tapes, the content of the tapes was mind-blowing. The talks contained a lot of information that Nassim had researched for over a decade about unlocking the truth to sacred geometry, fractals, the Mayan calendar, 2012, crop circles, cabalistic traditions, sunspots, chakras, sun gods, religion, Atlantis, freemasonry, the Knights Templar, and many other subjects.
Nassim explains how everything including the fabric of time-space is inter-connected, everything is made up of tiny parts of the greater whole and everything boils down to a tetrahedron and the singularity.
Since first viewing the old tapes, we have now watched one of Nassim’s lectures in person and have purchased a more recent 4 DVD set consisting of 8 hours worth of material. It is long but well worth watching for anyone who is seeking to unlock the truth of existence. Many questions will be answered which will lead to even more questions. I took many pages of notes and transcribed large chunks of the DVDs for my own learning.

How can you fit Infinity into a Finite Space?
It is crucial to understand the solution is a fractal. Infinity and finite systems are complementary. How infinity fits into a finite system will show through the geometry of reality. A sphere and a tetrahedron inside a sphere and another inverted tetrahedron (star of David symbol). The universe is polarized. If you keep adding triangles you get smaller stars of David. You get smaller and smaller boundaries to infinity. Each level generates a boundary at the next level. You get smaller and smaller boundaries; a computer would go on doing this to infinity. You will never exceed the first boundary you make for yourself. This is how infinity fits into a finite space.
You can divide to infinity within the circumference of a circle. What does that mean? Why is that important? You need to discover the dynamics of quantization, dynamics of division, not how far we can go into infinity. Each of our atoms, each of our cells has an infinite connection to everything else. Every cell is a mini black hole. Every atom has infinite mass. Faster and faster accelerators are being built to get smaller and smaller particles which costs more and more money. How can we envision infinity? We cannot visualize it. Why can’t we see it? Most of us try to visualize infinity as large and we are limited by our senses.
Through infinite division we can generate singularity. When you visualize infinity, turn your senses inward, connect with infinite nature, go into the infinitely small instead of large, go within to connect within. The temple of heaven is within us and within everything. The description of a fractal was never appropriately applied to physics. This changes the way we look at the structure of reality. Everything contains the whole. This is the key to understanding our infinite nature. How often do we turn our senses inward to connect with our infinite nature? The universe is expanding and contracting. The external part of existence is expansive and internal part of existence is contractive. There is a balance between expansion of the universe and contraction of the universe. Through meditation you can discover the world within.

[DiscovererOfNewKnowledge]

Hey guys,

I think in order to get a grasp of infinity, a new mathematics should be developed to account for infinity withing cyclic group theory. In essence finding the right regression formula to take us deep into the infinity of the numbers 1, 2, 3, then showing how much infinity is necessary to reset the cycle of the group, this will show us how infinity can be tied in the ALPHA and OMEGA.

Hope that helps with the infinity in finite space sort of thing.