Math: Did we discover or create it?

[InfiniteNow]

The dynamics of the universe are there with or without humans. However, math, the language we use to describe and attempt to understand those dyanmics, was created by us. That is how I opine on the subject... It is based on... well, based on my opinion.

[Tormod]

To quote this week's New Scientist editorial:

"Constants, like laws of nature, are human-made."

[questor]

"Constants, like laws of nature, are human-made." not so! the discovery and promulgation of a law of nature may be human made , but the law itself exists without the human.

[ronthepon]

Originally Posted by questor

"Constants, like laws of nature, are human-made." not so! the discovery and promulgation of a law of nature may be human made , but the law itself exists without the human.

A law is something fundementally different from a method of using a law.
Maths is just a group of rules that we use to understand and represent numbers, (and a lot of wierd things lately, like the imaginary number i) and solve the laws for values!

We created a method of expressing numbers and values, known or unknown, then developed it to such an extent that we can't say for sure now if it was natural or not!

If I were to explain with a good example of this being done, it would be ROMAN MATHS. So even they formed a group of rules to display numbers. But sadly, their method was'nt good enough.

Now, of course, numbers were something that were 'discovered' but hey! We all have heard of the set of Natural Numbers!

[KickAssClown]

Just replying in knee jerk fashion to the basic question: Math, did we discover or create it?

Both. it's the best answer, and I suppose that if you wanted to do the math for it, it would show that.

See due to conservation Law, anything we discover, is something we create, to the extent that anything can be created in the universe. that is to Say that we cannot "create" anything, mearly convert it from one thing to another. 1 = 1.

I hope that throws a monkey wrench into any of this.

[Tim_Lou]

math is like language. we didnt "discover" language, we invented languages. much like math, we invented math so that we can articulate situations using certain "human thinking patterns".

edit:i think it depends on how one looks at math. if one focus on the concepts of math and views math as a law, then it is discovered; if one focus on the actualy methods and symbols of math and views math as a tool, then it is invented.

[Tormod]

Originally Posted by questor

"Constants, like laws of nature, are human-made." not so! the discovery and promulgation of a law of nature may be human made , but the law itself exists without the human.

This means that the concept of "natural law" is beyond human beings, and as such must have been discovered. But since all our natural laws have been formulated by human beings, how do you explain that we find inconsistencies in these laws?

There are still laws we can't explain, although we can formulate them. But the formulation of a law is still an invention. Discovery is what we observe, invention is how we explain what we observe. Formulating a law does not mean that the law is correct.

[Kriminal99]

What exists before us to be discovered is a nameless order of things. Our interpretation of this nameless order we create. Part of this can, has been, and in some cases probably still is a MIS-interpretation.

[Valliko]

I see this topic is dead since long ago. Well, i'll answer it anyway.

Did we, or did we not creat mathematics? Now, the answer is depending on what we mean with mathematics. For me, math is abstract and logical connections / links. It is quantities, patterns and combinations. It is probably more than so but i'll keep it short.

Now, i am certain, very very certain that humans is nothing but discovering the contents of math. Whilst we created the language in wich we express theese connections or quantites (2 Red Dogs and so on) we are still only expressing ourself. We do not modify or determine the quantity. 2 Red dogs will always be 2 red dogs. Even a cat would know that 2 dogs is more than 1 (prolly wont think of it in numbers, but more instinctive). Do you understand me? My english language sure isn't the best :P

Another example would be a lenght, strecht, line, whatever.
The distance between point A and point B is constant. We could apply our metrics system on the "subject". We could call it 20 meters or 2000 Centimeters.. Whatever we call it, the distance would be the same. We did not determine the distance and we're not in state to modify it either.

Yet another example is the area of a circle. The circle with a radius of 1 has the area of pi, now this is a realtionship between two constants (1 and PI) wich we cant ever, ever change.

This is it, i hope you understand me. Sorry for bumping a very old thread, but this was needed bring me rest..

[Don Blazys]

Mathematics transcends the physical universe and as such is both indestructable and eternal. It exists as a set of absolute principles, and when this universe comes to an end, those exact same same principles will continue on into the next universe, and the next, and the next..., and so on into infinity.

Thus it can be said that inferior mathematics is "created", while superior mathematics is "discovered".

Don.